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Post by IMForeman on Apr 15, 2011 3:00:57 GMT
Starting this thread early because (as you'll know if you were reading the Cbox lately) I was at the screening in NY on Monday. I don't have much of a story to tell about that because, despite getting there at ungodly o'clock and waiting on line for about 13 1/2 hours, I was too far back to catch a lot of the action, aside from seeing the actors and then Steven Moffat briefly as they left. That was my one brush with fame, aside from meeting Matt Smith and seeing Karen Gillan last year. Hopefully they'll do this again next year too, and that time I'm camping out! But to get back on topic, I had a good time anyway. Everyone was really friendly and happy to talk to other fans. A few people were handing out jelly babies. There were a number of cosplayers - I counted many Elevens and Amys, several Tens, a Rose or two, a Donna, and a Two. Probably forgetting someone. At a certain point, people starting using chalk to write and draw all over the street and nearby buildings, so there was graffiti everywhere of "Bad Wolf", cracks in space and time, "Hello Sweetie", the Theta Sigma symbol, River's "Bye!" drawing, Daleks, TARDISes, the Doctor and Martha's message to Sally Sparrow on the wall in Blink, K-9, "Rory Pond"...just to name a few. I joined in myself and wrote "This is a fake" on a wall. I took a few pictures (not a whole lot, my phone died and I had to use the camera on my dad's and then later my mom's phone), which I can upload once I get a hold of them. They also gave out baseball caps with the logo on them which are rather nifty. Oh, and of course I got to see the episodes which I very much enjoyed. Brief reactions follow, none of which are spoilery at all, but which I'm putting under white text for courtesy's sake. They honestly give nothing away, but it's your choice whether you want to read or not. Seriously, do avoid spoilers if you can, there are some interesting twists that are better discovered by surprise. [/i]? [/Ten][/color] [/ul] Aaand that's about all I've got. While it was great to see the episodes early, I'm looking forward to when both of them have aired so I can discuss them properly.
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eve11
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Post by eve11 on Apr 15, 2011 17:37:44 GMT
thanks for the report and the spoiler free review! Sounds like you agree with the other spoiler free reviews I've read. I am quite excited indeed to see it!
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Post by merrythemad on Apr 19, 2011 17:38:57 GMT
Aww Foreman, I almost went but was unable to arrange sitters at so late a date, i then became despondent and adopted a kitten, well not exactly but it sounds more dramatic that way, yeah? Thanks for the great review and I am sure I will appreciate your lack of spoilers but right now, like in that infamous DW screenshot floating about the net, I kinda wanna strangle you, lol.
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Post by clocketpatch on Apr 19, 2011 18:49:12 GMT
Awwwww!! Kitten! Tell me about this kitten!
(Is it going to get a DW-themed name?)
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Post by merrythemad on Apr 19, 2011 22:30:19 GMT
I really want a DW-themed name but am striking out as he's gray and silver-tipped (looks like he's been rolled in sugar really) and is caught in between long and short haired so ends up looking extremely scruffy. He's also waaaaaay too young to be away from mommy (but the guy picking him up didn't know and really what could he have done? She would have just given him to someone else) and so he needs bottlefed and is still all weebly. Also he's VERY mouthy (like Teagan mouthy) but a boy so I'm a bit perplexed...sadly. I'll have to post pictures!
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eve11
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Post by eve11 on Apr 20, 2011 11:44:04 GMT
Okay guys I will also give away no spoilers but I saw the episodes last night at the BBCAmerica premiere event in Brooklyn and was thoroughly entertained! The audience were great and were whooping it up and cheering and generally being awesome. The tickets though were general admission and there were no seats left by the time I got in (and it was not theater seats so you couldn't see over people in the back), so I ended up having to sit/kneel on the floor behind the folks in chairs to get a good view of the screen, and the sound was a bit dodgy BUT I saw the eps and they were cool and to quote River Song from The Big Bang: "Okay. I have questions!" That is all I will say. They also had a stage show of sorts to accompany the episodes. They had a video greeting from Matt Smith who was sorry he couldn't be there, a who-themed comidenne ("Weeping Angels are like the worst game of 'Red light/Green light' ever! 'Red light! Green... Oh, man, 1960!"), and a costume contest. won by a girl in a weeping angel outfit but I like the girl dressed as a Dalek. Overall for the short notice the costumes were pretty fab. They had a guest lecturer: Michio Kaku the famous theoretical physicist who studies the possibility of real life time travel and he was a very engaging and cool speaker. They replayed the Craig Ferguson lost opening ("Truimph of intellect and Romance over brute force and cynicism!') and the BBC folks were amazed that folks in the audience knew the dance and were dancing along There was also a trivia contest that everybody in the audience could participate in; you broke into teams of four or less and they read the questions out loud on the stage and you wrote your answers on their scraps of paper and dumped them in a little plastic easter basket to be tallied. there were two rounds of 5 questions each. And OMG our team tied for the lead with two other teams and so one rep from each team had to go onstage for a buzzer-beater final question to determine who would win the swag. The emcee dressed as Rory put his plastic sword out in front of us and the first one to slap it got to answer the tie-breaker question (which was intentionally easy: "What does TARDIS stand for?") And being a veteran quiz bowl player from college I was a bit of a ringer. SO WE WON! Giant awesome posters, and baseball caps, and a blu-ray box set of series 5 signed by the cast! It was epic! Anyway, this was so totally worth it. Now I have to figure out how to get out of NYC without getting lost in Newark like what happened on the way in...
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Post by IMForeman on Apr 20, 2011 13:10:21 GMT
Ooh, that sounds like lots of fun. Wish I could have been there, unfortunately I'm under 21 and wasn't able to go. And congratulations on winning!
(And Merry: kitten pictures! Kitten pictures!)
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Post by merrythemad on Apr 20, 2011 19:45:44 GMT
I'm really glad you had so much fun, Eve, I considered going to this one as I had people on short notice by then, but opted out in favour of (hopefully) (finally) going to Gally. It sounds like it was good fun, though, and I'm super glad you enjoyed yourself...almost there those stuck away from NYC or London...
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Post by merrythemad on Apr 25, 2011 13:54:43 GMT
Right, so my reactions will be whited out just in case they need to be because I can't remember the white-out rules on recently-aired episodes and so...WAIT HOLD THE PHONE--how has nobody besides me (at this point) posted a reaction post the premiere?? FOR SHAME *gives DbAers the disappointed!mom-face* and now...my reactions
TIMELOOP EDIT: this post is ONLY to The Impossible Astronaut, unlike a few lucky board members I have yet to see Day of the Moon (but it's close to Saturday yay!!)
** First, I had to watch it twice because it was sooo shippy I was actually distracted from the plot. I was surprised to see the ship from the Lodger turn up so soon, and since Amy was stuck in the TARDIS (during the lodger) and Rory and River weren't there, nobody can even warn poor eleven (908 eleven, the other eleven will henceforth be known as Eleven-ty). That being said, the first time around I really didn't entirely mind the shippiness (I'm a sucker for a doomed romance, me) but it did seem awfully "in your face".
Eleventy and River doing diaries was fun, but my first kvetch actually has to do with River. Umm, Moffat, that was a whole bundle of what-the-rhymes-with-duckery! Firstly, River growing ever closer to the day the doctor doesn't know her only works if the Doctor too is stuck in linear time. Otherwise, any old him could show up whenever, this back to front thing doesn't make chronological sense. Another issue I have with this really unimaginative turn to her tale is the fact that if this unless this event occurs after Flesh and Stone and Time of Angels she should NOT have had any idea as to who Rory and Amy were (remember she was introduced to Amy in FaS ((although to be fair she oughtn't to have known Amy in Pandorica n BB which was were she met Rory and was surprised to find him on their side)) so these two people should have been as foreign to her as was Canton Everett Delaware III. So either the timey-whimeyness there is crappy because Moffat couldn't think about for two blasted seconds or something is REALLY up.
Which brings me to my next point (also regarding River) she can shoot a hat off a man's head at what 100 yards? (she was quite far away I'm bad at distance) but then just stands there with a gun in her pocket when the astronaut kills Eleventy? Why bother to show us what a great shot she is if a frame or two later she's just going to stand about? Why not shoot the astronaut the first blessed time he shot Eleventy? I GREATLY dislike guns and would have shot the astronaut myself, wouldn't all of us? I mean, really, if they are attacking the Doctor it's pretty clear they are not cool people, furthering that if they are attacking the Doctor UNPROVOKED, nah, not a single darned reason I can see to let him live. Are you really telling me that a River who is younger (therefore less controlled emotionally) just sat there and watched the Doctor die? The same woman who later goes on to make a dalek beg for mercy even though she suspects already that the Doctor isn't dead (after all hasn't she already seen older hims?) that SAME woman just bleeding stands there? To make matters worse when she finally does shoot, she friggin' misses what four or five times? Why write something so sloppy Moffat ...UNLESS (are you thinking what I'm thinking yet?)...
How does Eleventy know he's going to die? HUH??? HOW??? I ask you. He not only knows he's going to die he knows how, when and at the hands of whom ("It's okay, I know it's you ((or was it I know you're in there?) but how does he know? I mean, sure he's from the future but he's from Eleven's future not his own, when did he go all super psychic and gain precognition? unless...he had done it already which means: TAAA DAA! I think the Doctor is in the astronaut suit...maybe because Amy killed the one that needed to be there in 1969 (meaning when she shot the little girl ((or what was passing for a little girl) in 1969), and it was one of those magical (almost nonexistant in Moffat-land) times that cannot be rewritten. I further think (but at this point we are talking WILD speculation not based on anything so well thought out as the above) it's possible that River knew it was the Doctor and that's why she didn't shoot and that's why she missed AND that's why she's furious with him, not because him calling his younger self to that restaurant was appalling cold, but because by calling himself there (after having invited Canton to make SURE they knew the name and having mentioned that they've never been to 1969. Really? Never been to 1969? How many times did Martha say they went to the moonlanding?? So why mention it at all?) he's damned River to help him kill himself. After all, why even invite Canton to enter the TARDIS? Not only do I think River probably knows what's going on, I think perhaps Eleven does too. I originally thought that River would step in and stop him from being in the suit by doing it herself to protect the universe from the explosive paradox sure to follow and perhaps that was how she went to Stormcage, except that doesn't work as she was already in Stormcage at the beginning so unless Moffat has really screwed the pooch, that can't be it (although he's mucked up his timey-whimeyness enough now to have me truly doubting his ability to do it properly).
However, I do think the Doctor's got to be the astronaut and that's why River is furious, because she knows somehow what he's done, after all why else show us what a great shot she is just to have stand idly by and then miss, miss a lot, and at close range. Why else make the identity of the astronaut such a huge secret? I mean they released the photos of Eleventy dying before the episode came out so that was NOT what they were hiding; no, releasing those images was a form of prestidigitation.
Also, I don't think Amy is pregnant, I think she believes she is but I tihnk it's the Silents making her think that so she doesn't realise that when he thoughts turn toward certain subjects she suddenly becomes ill, she'll just chalk it up to morning sickness(remember the preview said they could use something like post-hypnotic suggestion).
I also think this arc will probably last the entire series and we'll not know exactly how it all turns out til then, though I truly hope I'm wrong, I'd hate to have a dead Eleventy hanging over our heads the whole series. Although, if it DOES go the entire series it could be why River ends up in prison because e younger River could pop up and jump in the suit.
A brief question, do they ever timeline River in this episode? Is it before or after the events of series five and in what order?
As for the Silents plot, i am relaly excited to see how it all ties together with the Lodger especially with Craig being back in a later episode, another thing that lends me to believe this is a VERY long arc...all in all I'm excited for the rest of the series or half series or what ever you call it and really am excited for next wekk when I think the two plots outlaid in this episode will come together in a way that doesnt make the Silents seem like a distraction....oooh and why do you think he (eleventy) was running? Why and from whom or what?**
and that's my reaction.
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Post by clocketpatch on Apr 26, 2011 2:59:20 GMT
Great reaction Merry. There's a lot of stuff there I never thought of, and some stuff I did, and likewise some stuff I agree with and some I don't. It's a helluva hook to start the series on though, that's for sure! I'm glad to have seen it, I wasn't sure how it would work out. I'm still not sure with the next episode. I've discovered that I can watch them quite legally on the Space.ca website, so that's nice to know.
I was about to write a reaction yesterday, but then there was some bad news, and well... but I'll see what I can remember for now:
First things first, Canton the ex-FBI man is incredibly awesome. I love him and Rory's dialogue together. I want him as a full time companion. I don't care that the TARDIS is full already, I want it.
"So basically, we're in a box, which is bigger on the inside, and travels through time and space... how long have Scotland Yard had this?" "Back with us now Canton?" "Yeah... Like your wheels"
xD
Rory and Amy also got some choice bits of dialogue with the whole:
"No, but we aren't going to plan our own wake and then invite ourselves" and
"Doctor... who exactly?" "That's classified" "By who?" "God knows."
xD
And the Doctor's whole thing about wine gums
Well, I was amused anyway.
The Oval Office scene was just brilliantly played with Eleven scribbling things down on the notepad and his dawning "oh poo poo!" face when Nixon turned around. And "they won't shoot." "They're Americans!" "Okay, don't shoot! No shooty!"
The pregnancy thing. I like your suggestion Merry, because I was doing a rewatch and realised River was making similar nausa comments and chalking them up to prision food, instead of the whole post-hypnotic suggestion thing I randomly had the thought that the aliens were making everyone pregnant... and from there my mind jumped to Rory/Alien babies and I basically need all of the brain bleach in all of the Internets now. Please, please, PLEASE tell me that this will never happen?
I had similar thoughts about the person in the Space Suit. He says: "I'm sorry". He says it to the person. They talk for a bit before the shots. I think that he's telling them to...
I was so mad I was spoiled on that scene previous to the eppy though. My mother watched it with me and she jumped about a mile. I am scared now though - there IS another series commissioned right? This isn't the end? Right?!?!
But if the Doctor is asking someone to kill him... why?
The silents are proper scary monsters.
The cliffhanger was... I was surprised they got away with that actually. I've a feeling that they'll open the space suit next week and find it empty, that the little girl was just a reflection. I mean, Adric asside, they can't be killing children on Who... can they?
Eleven and River... It might just be because I've been visiting with a friend who has alzheimer's, but when River started talking about how one day she's look at him and he wouldn't know who she was, I pretty much started bawling.
Anyway.
Next week... beard!Doc !!
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eve11
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Post by eve11 on Apr 26, 2011 14:02:54 GMT
Quick note guys: The first preview clip (in the TARDIS) released by the BBC for Day of the Moon is (unintentionally, I think) a bit extra spoilery. I'd avoid it. The second one is just creepy and scary but the first has exposition that folks would probably rather not know...
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eve11
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Post by eve11 on Apr 26, 2011 14:10:03 GMT
merry: "Another issue I have with this really unimaginative turn to her tale is the fact that if this unless this event occurs after Flesh and Stone and Time of Angels she should NOT have had any idea as to who Rory and Amy were (remember she was introduced to Amy in FaS ((although to be fair she oughtn't to have known Amy in Pandorica n BB which was were she met Rory and was surprised to find him on their side)) so these two people should have been as foreign to her as was Canton Everett Delaware III."
I wrote a bit about this on my journal, but the long and short of it is: River knew Amy all the way back in Time of Angels and she knew her in TPO/TBB and she knows her here in this two-parter. I'd have to rewatch the introductions but she could just have been going along with any intros to save time. Which means she meets Amy earlier on in her timeline (or later on in the series). No problem with timey-wimey-ness there; we just haven't seen her meeting Amy and Rory yet. Now she did NOT know who Rory was in TPO/TBB (or she would have been clued in as soon as he volunteered in the Roman camp). BUT at that point in the story line, Amy didn't know Rory either. He'd been erased from history. All past and all futures. I am assuming that, had Rory NOT been erased, River would have known him just as she knew Amy.
Re: River shooting the hat off the Doctor's head and then missing the Astronaut. How do we know she missed? She could have hit exactly what she was aiming at but the Astronaut may have had a forcefield or been impervious to bullets or any of a lot of things. That didn't bother me. Well, it bothered me that River shot the hat off the Doctor; that seemed extremely reckless and she could have killed him, no matter how good of a shot she was.
ETA: And to clarify Found the bit from Time of Angels. Amy wants to be introduced to River; River doesn't ever ask to be introduced to Amy (hence, she already knows her)
RIVER: Well, at least the building was empty. Aplan temple. Unoccupied for centuries. (begins to key something into a handheld device)
The DOCTOR walks back to AMY.
AMY: Aren't you going to introduce us?
DOCTOR: Amy Pond, Professor River Song.
RIVER: (faces them) Ahhh, I'm going to be a Professor some day, am I? (the DOCTOR winces at this slip) How exciting! (chuckles) Spoilers! (turns her attention back to what she was doing)
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eve11
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Post by eve11 on Apr 26, 2011 14:23:05 GMT
More talking about Merry's observations
I think that the Doctor knew he was going to die because that's what he's been running from for 200 years. The why, the how, the who... all of it I think is wrapped up in the upcoming series. You run when you're being chased. He's being chased by this moment; the Silents, the astronaut. But he doesn't need to have precognition to know that he's being chased by something, and you see at the picnic that he knows when Amy sees the Silent and forgets, that his time is drawing nearer.
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Post by jjpor on Apr 26, 2011 18:04:25 GMT
I haven't been a very good DbyAer these past few weeks, I admit. The shame of not being in first with a reaction post... ;D But yes: * I thought it was good, but I think I need to see the second part before I'll know how good. I was blown away by the opening ten mins or so (no pun intended!) and Eleven's Viking funeral. I'd sort of guessed by process of elimination that he had to be the major character who was going to die, but it was still a very powerful scene.
Now how will they resolve it while a) allowing the programme to continue and b) not making it look like a cop-out? Who knows? I kind of suspect it's going to be the mid-season cliffie or the season finale before we know, though. I don't see Moffat rushing things to resolve everything next week, as frustrating as it may be to wait. Just doesn't seem like his style.
Merry - we've not always agreed on the subject of Eleven stories and whether Moffat is or is not a snake-oil salesman but I do tend to agree with you that I don't have a clue how the whole Doctor-River crossed timelines thing works. It makes my hurt and not in a good way. It could well be that it's all going to be resolved in some amazing burst of cleverness, but I kind of suspect that really it works however Moffat needs it to work in a given story.
Oh, and I also agree I don't think Amy's really pregnant either - I think she was about to tell Eleven about his death, but at the last minute decided not to, so she said the first thing that came into her head. I'll be proved wrong next week no doubt! ;D
I thought Eleven knew about his impending death because the past-Eleven finds out from Amy or somebody at some point, and then being the generally standup guy he is he doesn't try to avoid it. Eventually. After spending 200 years running... So maybe not that much of a standup guy... But I think there's going to be more to it. FWIW I think it was either River or Eleven in the spacesuit doing the killing, and that it all serves some long range Doctorly scheme and that he's not really dead. Or not forever anyway.
Yes, sticking my neck out with that last one! ;D
As for River and her Peacemaker failing to make any holes in the astronaut, I just thought she/he/it was somehow impervious to bullets, the way entities in Who sometimes are. I think she even said "Of course..." when she'd finished shooting and it was still unscathed. The Brig would have sympathised with her (and I really appreciated the Lis Sladen tribute at the top of the episode, but why not one for Nick Courtney too?).
River and her relationship with the Doctor certainly continues to get more interesting and complex. I felt really bad for her when she was talking about living for the days when she sees him, especially in light of their earlier confrontation: "Trust you? Seriously?" Poor River!
And how scary was Matt Smith in that scene? He was excellent as always, but I especially liked him playing future-Eleven at the start - somehow even older and more weary compared to his normal self. And that scene! "Don't play games with me. Don't ever, ever think you're capable of that." I think we saw a glimpse of the real Eleven behind the mask there, and he's not someone you'd want to be on the wrong side of. But then, after telling off River, we saw how he really does care about and trust Amy, so he's not completely cold and scary. He's the Doctor.
And I thought Canton Everett Delaware III was pretty cool, apart from his constant berating of the only black Secret Service dude, which was chock full of Unfortunate Implications, really. But yes, cool authority-defying ex-FBI guy and not just because he's played by legendary "hey-it's-that-guy!" Mark Sheppard. LOL'd at that "well, you were my second choice for President" crack. I wonder if we'll find out what his cryptic remark about getting married being a crime meant - the fandom consensus is it's a reference to being gay, but we shall see. Yes, all in all I want to write fanfic about the bloke. ;D
And they were pretty fair to Nixon, maybe fairer than they should have been, but I'm pleased there was some ambiguity in his portrayal. More than they managed with Churchill, anyway!*
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Post by Stripes on Apr 29, 2011 1:09:13 GMT
All I can say is that WHO has lost its camp, family fun feel and has become "OH NOZ WE R SERIEZ SCIFI SHOW 4 ADULTZ NOW" Ten got serious but there was still had that campy feel. This epsiode makes me want to watch the classic who more than ever. Oh and leave it to Amy to urge me throw something at the TV within the first 5 minutes.
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eve11
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Post by eve11 on Apr 29, 2011 17:42:04 GMT
Sorry you didn't like it This series is supposed to be darker than others but it might also have a few campier episodes coming up, you never know.
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Post by johne on Apr 30, 2011 20:35:23 GMT
Spoilers for both episodes herein.
OK, I've watched this twice and am still none the wiser. ] "They had fallen, these invincibles, fallen like book-villains, and he didn't like it" -- Second Foundation, by Isaac Asimov
The subplot with the Silents secretly ruling Earth, which is about the only subplot in the episode that does get resolved, seemed to be one of the Doctor's less successful successes. Rather as in the resolution of The Long Game, he proclaims victory and then runs off to new adventures, without making sure the villains are actually defeated. And, um, exactly how many humans are the Silents going to take down with them, if they decide to put up a fight? Their built-in weaponry may be slow and inefficient, but they've got access to whatever they put in the spacesuit.
(btw, that line of Davros's about the Doctor turning people into weapons? It would appear that Eleven is one of the sort who not only do that, but do it gleefully: he's just done it to everybody who was watching, or will ever watch, the Moon landings.)
In the opening sequence, I see that Amy learned from Sarah Jane and Martha's mistakes, and actually managed to stop herself tumbling off the Gentle Slope Of Doom rather than falling down it ;D
Regarding Amy's pregnancy-or-not, it looks as if there are two timelines in play: one where she's pregnant, one where she's not. At some later point in the season, we'll get flipped from one to the other, and probably unhappen a lot of stuff that's already happened. But which one leads to the Promised Land, and which one to Eternal Destruction?
River... I found her annoying in Season 30, and less annoying in Season 31. Now she's gone back to 'annoying' again. The Doctor's plan for the final confrontation seems to be "I shall bring my pet CanonSue with me, and point her at the bad guys," which seems a little on the lazy side.
Not a particular fan of the timeskip after the cliffhanger. We should, at least, have seen the Doctor giving Amy a Serious Talk about shooting first and asking questions later.
Where did the Area 51 guys get hold of all that dwarf-star alloy (which seems not to be as dense as, say, gold?) Presumably the Silents gave them a supply, but I still think there are missing links in that chain.
Why did River jump off the building, rather than play dead like Amy and Rory? All three of them must have had the same knowledge, or lack thereof, about whether Canton was really going to shoot them or not.
Not a fan of the recycled does-Amy-really-love-Rory? elements. That was resolved in Amy's Choice and I don't see the point of revisiting it.
My theory for the ending: We'll revisit the little girl's regeneration in the finale, or one of them, and she'll regenerate into the Doctor, thus cancelling out his death at the start. You heard it here first ;D [
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Post by jjpor on Apr 30, 2011 21:58:26 GMT
johne - I think you might well be right there with that last point! I posted this in the cracky wild-guesses thread, but I'm starting to think it might not be as cracky as I thought at the time: Beware the crack! * The Doctor gets Amy pregnant (via scientific means, obviously! ) - with himself!!! Right, bear with me - Eleven gets killed, but not really because he manages to do implant a clone of himself into Amy and somehow transfer his consciousness to the clone...and then Amy gives birth to him! Which might make her the mysterious woman in white in EoT, only not really, because I completely refuse to accept Rusty's claim that the woman in white was the Doctor's mum, even in a not-really sense!* Two theories in light of this episode: * a) As you say, it's all part of the Doctor's plan, and that he somehow got Amy pregnant (probably by some non-direct means to avoid the unfortunate implication that she was cheating on Rory or it was non-consenting or anything horrible like that) during one of those Silent-induced mental blackouts in order to avoid his own death or something - or b) some third party has enlisted the help of the Silence in recreating the Time Lord race, possibly using genetic material from both Eleven and Amy, again maybe during one of those erased-memory periods the Silence could create, and that this third party is the owner of the mysterious "Silence will fall" voice heard in The Pandorica opens and the cause of the exploding TARDIS/cracks in the universe mystery that everybody, possibly including Moffat, seems to have forgotten about.
And yes, the is she/isn't she pregnant thing is a bit of a head-scratcher. Some sort of alternate timeline thing certainly seems the most likely explanation at this point in time.
I agree with the point that the defeat of the Silence wasn't necessarily as cut and dried as the Doctor would like you to think - but I'm not sure if I agree with the point raised by various reactions I've seen that it was especially unethical/violent/manipulative by the Doctor's own standards. As I see it, it isn't too different to what Seven did in Remembrance of the Daleks in terms of ruthlessness. He isn't actually inciting the mass murder of the Silence, more rendering human space uninhabitable to them, assuming they just run. Of course, they might choose instead to stand and fight, which as you say would be a bit less cut and dried than Eleven seems to think.
I also tend to agree about River, not so much in terms of Canon Sue-ness, but more like - well, if she only ever was the Doctor's future lover/wife, as was strongly implied in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, then what was the point of all this wilful mystification and talk of her killing a good man and all that? More power to people who like River and like the idea of Doctor/River, I mean, I don't dislike River as a character myself, but the main reason she was interesting to me was that I was intrigued by her mystery and by the mystery of what her relationship with the Doctor was. If, however, it turns out that she was exactly what she appeared to be in her first appearance, albeit with a nasty timey-wimey twist, then, well, nice bait and switch Moffat, but why should I care?
As I say, if anybody likes River and likes the idea of Doctor/River (and I know one person here has written some excellent Doctor/River fanfic that I liked very much indeed), then no offence meant. However, those somewhat supercillious fans on LJ and elsewhere (nobody here, I hasten to add!) who like to imply River is the only strong female character ever to appear in Who and that to dislike her makes you some sort of closet misogynist (they're the same people who claim anybody who dislikes Martha is a racist - I like Martha quite a bit, but even I can see that's a load of bull), well...can you say "straw man"?
Sorry, momentary rant over. Fans, eh?
All of that aside, I liked this more than I'm guessing johne did, but possibly only because I'm easier for cool things that don't quite make sense. ;D I'm not fully sure why all the running around America pretending to be chased by Canton was necessary, or indeed about how they were handling the dwarf star alloy, but I thought Canton was pretty awesome as a deadpan, murderous Man in Black and when I heard "dwarf star alloy" I just went "Squee! Warrior's Gate reference!" ;D
I still haven't got the faintest clue what's going on, but I want to find out. That's something, at least. My main question, though, and one that I feel is perhaps going to throw all the other ones into irrelevance is:
Who the spacking spack was that woman with the one eye looking through the nonexistant peephole in the door?
And what the spacking spack did she mean "it looks like she's still dreaming"??
And it was Amy she was looking at as she said it.
Food for thought...
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Post by johne on Apr 30, 2011 22:17:09 GMT
* I agree with the point that the defeat of the Silence wasn't necessarily as cut and dried as the Doctor would like you to think - but I'm not sure if I agree with the point raised by various reactions I've seen that it was especially unethical/violent/manipulative by the Doctor's own standards. As I see it, it isn't too different to what Seven did in Remembrance of the Daleks in terms of ruthlessness. He isn't actually inciting the mass murder of the Silence, more rendering human space uninhabitable to them, assuming they just run. Of course, they might choose instead to stand and fight, which as you say would be a bit less cut and dried than Eleven seems to think.] I'm not particularly condemning the Doctor's moral standards, because it's well-known that he doesn't have any ;D It's just that usually, his methods are quick, lethal and effective. Whereas what he's just set off here has the potential to be slow and extremely messy. [ My main question, though, and one that I feel is perhaps going to throw all the other ones into irrelevance is:
Who the spacking spack was that woman with the one eye looking through the nonexistant peephole in the door?
And what the spacking spack did she mean "it looks like she's still dreaming"??
* ] When writing up my thoughts, I kept forgetting her. Which is worrying, in its own way [
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Post by Maggadin on Apr 30, 2011 22:19:15 GMT
And here I was thinking that there was a tiniest (I admit, very tiny) chance that relationship might become interesting, but no, it's just the Twooest Wuv Evah nonsense that I expected
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