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Post by merrythemad on May 9, 2011 12:59:05 GMT
Maggie, I do believe they have done just that. Ever seen "The Green Death"? or perhaps "City of Death"? Heck, even "Black Orchid" was FRAUGHT with innuendo regarding Five and Tegan (it's an awfully big bed...). I also seem to remember a few series wholly dedicated to a character named Rose, somebody else he loved and lost. Can we PLEASE for the love of DW move on??? An episode aired Saturday and here we are b*tching over River rather than trying to decipher what has to be among the MOST cryptic and well-planned series in ages.
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Post by Maggadin on May 9, 2011 17:45:27 GMT
Then don't read this thread and post on the other one instead. People can still discuss episodes even though it's been a couple of weeks since it aired (if we couldn't, we wouldn't be discussing classic Who, still). That doesn't mean we won't discuss other stuff as well.
Also: (spoiler)Innuendo? Perhaps so, at least if you want there to be, but he didn't share everything about himself with nor were they ever painted as his Truest Love Ever. Part of what makes the Doctor interesting is that nobody ever knows everything about him.
Either way, nobody is going to agree about each and every character (I've never attacked you for not liking Martha or Mickey, have I?), but as long as I don't personally attack anyone I'm entitled to discuss whatever I want, wherever I want.
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Post by merrythemad on May 9, 2011 18:46:41 GMT
I'm not trying to attack you, Maggie, I'm just sick of all this negativity and kvetching, I can think of at least one member that left specifically for that reason, the constant River/NuWho bashing. When i first joined this sort of thing NEVER happened (either because it wasn't allowed or because we just didn't hone in on one little thing and go off forever regarding that one little thing).
As for my dislike of Mickey and Martha I have NEVER gone on and on in thread after thread and conversation after conversation, in fact, I make jokes about disliking them and I don't take people disagreeing with my opinion as people disliking me, see it isn't personal.
Also, please tell me where it is you got this she's the bestest ever who knows everything about him as I have never once heard those words come from anyone's mouth other than your own , I believe I am not the only one guilty of extrapolating here.
Lastly, I am NOT attacking you, I LIKE you, I'm just sick to death of the negative opinions constantly bombarding every new episode thread. Fine, we know you hate it, tell us why once and feel free to argue your case, please don't constantly rehash the same opinion based solely on the fact that she isn't freaking Romana.
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Post by jjpor on May 9, 2011 22:00:38 GMT
Please, everyone read this, and then feel free to shun me for a self-righteous so and so if you deem it appropriate ;D * To be perfectly honest, and without wanting anybody to take my words the wrong way, I think there is too much going on in NuWho right now to let one plot strand, which remains fairly ambiguous as to how it is going to turn out, colour and ruin the whole show for me.
Let me be clear - as I said above, I don't particularly like the idea of the Doctor having "canonical" romances in screen stories. I don't think it adds a whole lot to the show, and as Maggadin points out it can all too easily be seen as disrespect for characters who have come before who could reasonably be thought of as just as important to the Doctor during his life. Let's face it, at the end of the day none of them can compete with the mysterious "Mrs Who", can they? But yes, I think those sorts of comparisons and storylines are best suited to fan discussion and fanfic (where as you know I readily participate in them myself!) and shouldn't really be the province of the official writers and producers.
Having said that - I don't dislike River as a character. I think she can come off a bit smug and Mary Sue-ish at times, but then again, so can the Doctor. And I think that that element of her character has been more than tempered and given depth by the very real emotional vulnerability and doubt she appeared to show at points in this two-parter.
Assuming, of course, that she isn't, as I keep accusing her of being, an agent of the Black Guardian or something, ALL ALONG! This was sort of my assumption after S5, so my above negativity and disappointment stems from the fact that this story appeared to suggest the story was going to be more straightforward (and less interesting, to my mind) than I had assumed. But then again, who am I to know the mind of Moffat?
NuWho isn't perfect. far from it. There are still many aspects of it that I think can't compare to the classic series at its best, and a lot of the time it falls far short, in my eyes, of my favourite pre-1989 stories. Having said that, I do like Eleven and Moffat's tenure better than I did most of Ten/RTD, although I strongly suspect that there is no actual difference in quality, just in emphasis and tone, and that this sort of comparison at the end of the day usually comes down to nothing more than personal preference on the part of the viewer/fan.
However, it struck me some time in the middle of last week, that I was spending so much time arguing the toss about fannish concerns (and I'm not even talking about this thread - I'm talking about a very long and involved and ultimately pointless discussion I became enmeshed in on Livejournal about whether or not the Doctor had acted according to his entirely subjective and nonexistant moral code in the Day of the Moon story denouement). You know, fighting about this sort of stuff and being outraged, as the famous cartoon says that "someone on the internet is wrong" (imho!) was actively harshing my enjoyment of the show. When I watched Day of the Moon again later in the week and tried just to chill the hell out as I was doing it, I enjoyed it a lot more. Life is too short and the internet is too full of differing opinions to fight over this sort of meaningless stuff. We can discuss what we like and don't like and what we thought was fun or not fun, but actually to fight over this stuff strikes me as the height of futility and was in danger of making me not enjoy a TV programme I by and large enjoy very much.
So, I'm not saying we should turn off our brains when we're watching Who or that we shouldn't raise negative points and discuss things that could be better. Of course we should - that is the fun and point of having a forum like this. However, we shouldn't take it to the point where it isn't fun any more and where people are talking about leaving the community. God knows, this place isn't as busy as it used to be. We can't afford to lose any of the good people (and I include both Maggadin and Merry very firmly in that category) that we still have.
It's natural that as fans who are deepy attached to Doctor Who that we should have concerns and preferences and theories, not to mention genuine hopes and fears about the way the story is going and the way the programme itself is going. But we shouldn't be letting any of that stop us from enjoying the show as it is, or lead us to form prejudgments or assumptions on what the writers may or may not intend or where things are likely to go that might deny us this thing that is Who. Because even if you hate Steven Moffat's idiosyncracies as a writer or think a particular story is rubbish or prefer Ten or think none of it can hold a candle to oldschool Who, it can't really be denied that there is a lot still to enjoy in NuWho and it'd be a shame to miss out on that because of not wanting to watch a particular character or a particular storyline.
So, while I appreciate I am the last person entitled to be preaching this sort of sermon, I just want to say I'm going to try and take a chill pill for the rest of S6 and try to avoid the sort of destructive, divisive, ultimately futile fanwankery that I fear I am in danger of falling into (again, nothing to do with DbyA - those of you who follow me on Livejournal will remember my embarrassing ranting when some snotty, blind RTD-lover on the doctor_who comm really got to me sometime in the middle of S5). And hopefully this can continue to be a place where we can all hang out and have fun.
Please. I don't want to lose DbyA or the people I've come to know through it that I like to think of as friends, assuming that doesn't make me sound like a creepy internet stalker type ;D.* But yes. That's just my £0.02 - absolutely no offence meant to anybody, so I hope nobody takes any.
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Post by Maggadin on May 10, 2011 0:22:27 GMT
Well, just about every sentence in SitL/FotD, for one thing. The thing about him not ''truly'' being the Doctor until she meets him, knowing his name, knowing that he's going to ''rise higher and fall harder than EVER before'' (I mean, he's had a very long life) etc. Those things would be all right if it was just a couple of things, but IMO they've overblown it by having her know too much and be TOO important just by being who she is. There. I've told you a tiny part of the reason. And you'd know those reasons if you'd read anything I wrote, I think. I'm not trying to attack you, Maggie, I'm just sick of all this negativity and kvetching, I can think of at least one member that left specifically for that reason, the constant River/NuWho bashing. When i first joined this sort of thing NEVER happened (either because it wasn't allowed or because we just didn't hone in on one little thing and go off forever regarding that one little thing). Okay, look, I'm the first to admit that I can be obstinate. I'm like a brick wall at time. However, I also believe that I'm not the only one to blame here. I posted about a topic in a specific thread about specific episode with said specific character in them. It could very well be argued that this wasn't the right thread for it. I did think that this was supposed to be a discussion board and not an OMG!Squee board, though. And before you start, I was discussing. Just because I didn't do it exactly the way you would have like it doesn't mean that I wasn't. If you want me to say that you're right and I'm wrong and that everything is my fault, then I could do that. But I don't believe it. And it's not my fault it's not a ''little'' thing. It's the show's for making it so huge. ;D As for my dislike of Mickey and Martha I have NEVER gone on and on in thread after thread and conversation after conversation, in fact, I make jokes about disliking them and I don't take people disagreeing with my opinion as people disliking me, see it isn't personal. Well, that's what I've been trying to say. And I (at least half the time) only ''go on'' about it if it's relevant to the thread/discussion and since it's the character/plot that people seem the most interested in discussing ATM, it's bound to come up. And you do talk about it a lot when we're actually discussing said characters. It's just that those characters aren't being discussed a lot in general. The point I was trying to make, though, is that I've never made a personal insult against anyone who didn't like a character I liked, whereas I have had personal insults thrown at me. I make jokes about it, all right, it's just that some people take my attempts at self-deprecation as srs bsns. Lastly, I am NOT attacking you, I LIKE you, I'm just sick to death of the negative opinions constantly bombarding every new episode thread. Fine, we know you hate it, tell us why once and feel free to argue your case, please don't constantly rehash the same opinion based solely on the fact that she isn't freaking Romana. Well, wouldn't you say that any opinion somebody doesn't like is annoying to said individual? If we were only supposed to voice positive opinions, the rules would've probably said so. I probably should've talked about my opinions about a character in said character's own thread. I'll admit as much. I have told you why. Several times. Again, I don't think I'm the only one who needs to take a good look inwards, here. People don't always want to talk about exactly the same thing that you want to talk about at all times. I've learned as much. Also, my opinion isn't ''solely'' based on the fact that she's not Romana. Or even remotely mostly. If it were, I'd have to hate a lot of characters that I like. I'll now stop writing about ''personal'' stuff in this thread. Any further discussion on that can be made in a PM. I apologise to the mods for the inconvenience.
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Post by merrythemad on May 10, 2011 0:35:26 GMT
she didn't say he wasn't THE Doctor she said he wasn't HER Doctor. As far as anything else, I really wasn't trying to be mean, I'm just exasperated. I apologise if it felt mean or seemed mean. That was NEVER my intention, I like and respect everyone but that stinky old JJ on this board (I'm kidding please don't fry me, I STALK JJ every weekend for goodness sake) and I NEVER EVER meant to come across even vaguely implying anything other than that.
I'm also sorry, Mods, I just felt I needed to apologise as publicly as I snapped.
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leamichelle
Code/Graphics Moderator
Of the Cult of the Chicken of Rassilon (thanks LL!)
Posts: 157
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Post by leamichelle on May 10, 2011 2:48:55 GMT
You are all wonderful people, and I respect all of your opinions. ;D ** I think I really bury my face in the sofa more at the shippy things than the monsters - not to say that the Doctor shouldn't have relationships, it's just that, having watched this character through many incarnations, I'm not quite used to him being so ... sexual xD
Regarding the little girl - omg who the [sticking plasters] is she no no no imdb no wtf regeneration aaaaaaah. And that's all I know.
I know the series kinda revolves around Amy's pregnancy, but I wish they wouldn't insert the scanner scene desperately as if they couldn't find a better, subtler way of connecting it to each episode.
I still think the main enemy is the Celestial Intervention Agency.
Anyway, that's all. Incoherence at its best, that's me! xD **
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Post by Maggadin on May 10, 2011 8:39:57 GMT
Well, Eleven's not the first to be ''sexual''.
Anything can be argued, JJ. I mean, I don't disagree with you, but it can still be argued. ;D
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Post by merrythemad on May 10, 2011 13:19:11 GMT
No, he certainly isn't, Mags, but I agree with Lea it seems squicky this series and I LIKE River...
Also, upon a rewatch I noticed SEVERAL things (we really don't need to white out now do we?) I'll be posting them as soon as MiniMaster finishes cheating at Memory
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Post by Maggadin on May 10, 2011 14:20:18 GMT
On the ''not-the-Doctor'' thing.
''I am the Doctor''
''No, you're not. Not yet''.
Of course, I could be remembering that quote wrong. What I got out of it is that she either doesn't feel like the Doctor did/experienced much of any huge significance before she met him (''he seems so unfinished'') or that she means he's not ''her'' Doctor. Not trying to be wanky, just saying how I remember the exact quote. Either way, that's a discussion for another thread.
Er, on topic: It's SO not Eleven's baby omg.
Also, I'm not sure this arc is as micro-managed or as full of hidden clues as people think. Yes, parts of it are probably very well planned, but some of it is probably made up as they go along. Nothing wrong with that, of course. Just saying that Moffat isn't Stanley Kubrick and probably doesn't obsess over every detail being consistent. Could be wrong, of course.
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Post by jjpor on May 10, 2011 19:10:27 GMT
No, it's alright Merry - I'm used to getting no darn respect by now... Even the cat disses me. ;D Although I suspect that's what cats are meant to do... I'm sorry, btw, about the preaching above. I know it's sort of appropriate for someone with my sartorial predilections to be preaching, but, I'm kind of embarrassed by it in the cold light of day. Don't want to delete it, though, cause that would be the height of dishonesty and what have you. Oh, and you're right, Maggadin - there's always something to argue about... ;D Re-reading the above embarrassingness (is that even a word?), I notice that at one point I appear to be arguing that not only should watching NuWho be compulsory but that enjoying it should be as well. Which was not, believe it or not, what I actually meant. But you all may start calling me "Helen A" from now on. Happiness will prevail! An-y-way... My interpretation of River's remarks about him not being the Doctor yet was just that he wasn't "her" Doctor, ie she knew a different incarnation or so on. I can see how it can be taken the other way, but on balance, I'd be inclined still to think that. No, I don't think Moffat's like this grandmaster who's plotted everything out in intricate detail from Day One. I think he probably has in regard to the main story arc beats since the start of S5, purely because he seems to be throwing in so many non-sequitirs that he only comes back to and explains weeks or months later. I may be being naive, but I do sort of tend to assume that he knows what these things mean at the time he puts them in. Not like me writing multi-part fanfics, for instance, where the last couple of parts before the epilogue tend to be me suddenly thinking of ways of linking together all the disparate stuff I threw into the early parts because I was making it up as I went along. Moffat may not be the greatest genius to grace the annals of Who since St Bob Holmes went to his reward, but I tend to assume he's better at plotting and that than I am. ;D You know, cause he does it for a living and everything... What I will say is, I think the stuff about River in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead was done without him necessarily knowing how it was going to end or how he was going to link it into future story arcs (I mean, at that point, did he even know yet that he was going to be taking over the show from RTD? I guess he must have known well before we did - when did he have to give up working on Spielberg's Tintin film?). I think he left a lot of the details about exactly who or what she was to the Doctor vague to give himself wiggle room for future stories, but I don't think he's above shamelessly retconning stuff now to make it fit into the bigger picture, and kind of expect fans not to notice it so much at this remove. I think there have actually been a couple of identifiable examples so far. And the stuff about River being the only one who knows his real name - I think that was a big mistake. It must have seemed like a kewl idea at the time of writing, but it makes no sense whatsoever in the context of what we know about the Doctor and Gallifrey and the Time Lords. Did guys like Borusa let everyone know their names because they were like celibate quasi-priestly public servants and hence "married" to the job or something? Who knows? Silly thing to put in, Moffat! Anyway, to discuss other aspects of the episode (whiting out just cause it's stuff that's likely to have a bearing on future stories): * I don't know - I read the imdb spoiler, and it doesn't make sense to me. Especially not as Eleven era Who has made pretty much a clean break from the Ten era in regard to characters and storylines. Until it's actually confirmed true (which I won't know until I see it onscreen because of my attempts to avoid trawling for spoilers for a change - which is working really well, as you can see by me going to imdb ;D), I tend not to believe it. Could be misinformation. Wouldn't be the first time people posted absolutely barmy "spoilers" on imdb. Remember when Norman Lovett (the original Holly out of Red Dwarf) was meant to be appearing as Davros in the S1 finale? Do me a favour, as Holly might say. ;D
But yes - Eyepatch!Woman is, as I suspected, the new cracks! At least she appeared in the pirate story too... That's interesting, isn't it? As I said on the other thread - find the Doctor's bit of dialogue about parallel universes intersecting and stuff from that story. It was presented as a bit of by-the-by technobabble to explain the monster of the week, but I wonder...
Agreed, Lea, that we don't need to see the is she/isn't she pregnancy test every single weak to remind us of it. Another way in which the pirate story seemed a bit clumsy and clunky, really.
Although it does raise the question - was the Doctor always scanning all of his companions all along?? You know, just to make sure there wasn't any unnecessariness going on between those mixed-gender TARDIS crews? ;D (If Seven's reaction to Ace's "love life" is anything to go on, he might have been pretty laissez-faire when it came to single-gender crews, really). ;D* On which puerile note, here endeth the sermon.
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eve11
UNIT Red Shirt
Posts: 70
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Post by eve11 on May 10, 2011 22:41:57 GMT
hey there I really want to be unspoiled for whatever's on IMDB... since the whiteout text has been used in wildly varying situations I highlighted yours above with no compunction and then ran as soon as I saw "i read the IMDB Spoiler" before I could pick up much more... can you put that bit in cleartext? Or can we start a new thread to discuss it (being as it's apparently a really spoilery mega-spoiler) so I know to stay away? thanks. Sorry to be so skittish. ETA: Right, yes, I just re-read the rules and respectfully request that any discussions of the IMDB spoiler (even vague reactions to such) go in the spoiler thread only. Thanks!
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Post by merrythemad on May 10, 2011 23:50:19 GMT
Nobody in this thread has said what it is, Eve. I'm certain of that and I honestly doubt it's veracity, however, yes no problem at all, these threads of late have been all over the board (no pun intended). I think nobody really knows exactly where to put anything at this point... >.<
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eve11
UNIT Red Shirt
Posts: 70
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Post by eve11 on May 11, 2011 1:44:24 GMT
"and I honestly doubt it's veracity"
I just don't want to hear *anything* about it. Not even whether folks doubt it or not, whether they're mad about it or thrilled or skepitical or anything. I wouldn't have known if the white text continued to discuss things because as soon as I read the first 8 words I went "aaaaa!" and ran away. If spoiler white stands both for "what we do for one week after the episode has aired" and "what we do when we discuss things we found out by following spoiler threads and then talking about them" in the same episode discussion thread then I at least request some kind of clear text differentiation between the two indicating whether the white text is standard episode discussion or contains additional information.
OTOH I suppose I can just not read any white text.
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Post by merrythemad on May 11, 2011 3:12:31 GMT
ack no!!! I wasn't trying to be mean, I was trying to be reassuring! I seem to be mucking up all about this thread...I was even agreeing with you
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Post by jjpor on May 11, 2011 20:37:45 GMT
Aw, no Merry - I don't think you gave any offence and I don't think eve11 took any. Eve does, however, raise a good point re spoilers. We've been a bit free and easy around here, and there are all kinds of threads and things. So really, we should only be discussing things direct to this episode here, and we need some other thread for the "big" spoilers... Which is what Newton told us the other day, but we're just hopelessly disorganised and disobedient, aren't we?
So, my question - do we have a particular thread we should be using for S6 spoilers as opposed to individual episode stuff? Don't want to start a new one if there's one already, if you know what I mean.
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Post by IMForeman on May 12, 2011 5:18:57 GMT
So, my question - do we have a particular thread we should be using for S6 spoilers as opposed to individual episode stuff? Don't want to start a new one if there's one already, if you know what I mean. What about the Series 6 spoilers thread?
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eve11
UNIT Red Shirt
Posts: 70
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Post by eve11 on May 12, 2011 11:59:00 GMT
No offense taken, merry. And yeah, I was thinking of the series 6 spoilers thread.
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Post by clocketpatch on May 15, 2011 4:48:46 GMT
I love you all no matter your opinions on a 50 year old TV show.
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kirkg
Auton Daisy
"Hello, Sweetie!"
Posts: 442
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Post by kirkg on Jun 4, 2011 3:31:59 GMT
I have to admit that I was a bit disappointed by the lack of the entire adventure being set in the American West. Granted the vistas of vistas and arid views was great, but he only wears the damn hat for a few moments... and most of the story could and did take place inside sets. Not on location. But then maybe more will come in flashbacks later in the series.
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