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Post by clocketpatch on May 1, 2011 6:37:25 GMT
I keep forgetting her too ever after I wad like OH poo poo WAHT WAS THAT!!! And even though I'm fdrunk and it's all to be expecting it's still stripping me RIGHT OUT THERE,THis is some scart poo poo right there, even if I did not ea[[[prove of most of it
I like this Time Liones theort. IOt's better than me going of crap TIme Lord babies are in different times all at once in the wombloommmmmmmmmmms. But AMy is the haldf human on the monther side what is this? WHYIS THE BAD SPIOLER ABOUT: is it the doctor's rory's or the daley cybersmans the one to co me true OMG NOOOOOOOOOOO AAAAAA
But at least Rory iusn't mpregegnant that woudl be worse by lots.javascript:add("%20;D")
He is hot with his suit and glasses and awkwardness I like UTS but this is getting bad just confirm thatt Amy.Rory is right item not DOctor.Amy Moff I do not like this, this was no Who
Still, funniest part is the Storm Cage happening in THAT HALLWAY under the stadium in Cardiff that shows up in like, every episode of the NUWHO. EVERY SINGLE ONE!!! It' is the quarry of NuWHo and it make me laugh like MADNESS everyonetime I see it
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Maggadin on May 1, 2011 13:52:31 GMT
Half-human Time Tots? What is this, fanfic?
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Post by merrythemad on May 1, 2011 14:46:34 GMT
*blinks* well, the outrage I expected is here, isn't it? Bear in mind I almost NEVER write reactions before seeing an episode twice (which I haven't yet) but some of you had some points I felt it necessary to respond to. So a blurry not all sorted first reaction follows, and i expect a clarifying post to be written sometime this evening (after having rewatched lol).
** If you remember, Amy's first message to herself is that she is dreaming (in the orphanage the blinky-note-thingy in her hand said something to the effect of "it's really weird but I think you're dreaming and you have to get out". So, part of me expects Moffat to write this whole series off as a dream, but what if it isn't Amy that's dreaming but her baby?
As for the whole pregnant not pregnant thing I agree it's time-lines crossing. I think really the only important thing regarding her being pregnant or not is which timeline is the "proper" or established timeline and which is the alternate. THAT I feel will play a huge (and likely heart-wrenching) part.
Soooo, this little girl, i think it's far to obviously pointing to this little girl being Amy's child. I think the little girl is Amy (I know it doesn't make much sense). I mean, Amy's childhood was eaten by cracks, Amy brings people back from the bleeding dead, Amy solves things that leave the Doctor stumped. Amy whose mystery was never solved (why IS she so blasted important and how did she pull people back from erasure? Because that bit about it being because of the cracks is rubbish because if it WAS because of the cracks she couldn't bring people back in a universe without cracks i.e. in the rebooted universe Amy wouldn't have been able to recall anyone because there were no cracks to have ever run through her head. Also, after the squicky-Amy-comes-on-to-the-Doctor-scene (Flesh and Stone) the Doctor says "It's you, it's all about you Amy Pond, I need to get you sorted right this instant" or something to like. Which is almost word for word what he says about the child. "The little girl is the most important thing, it's all about the little girl". Also, I think this echoes his line in 11th Hour "You were seven five minutes ago!", he still sees Amy as a little girl and always will. I'm not saying he(the Doctor) knows but Moffat does and I think the line was worded that way VERY much on purpose.
Also, I agree the Silents weren't resolved but I don't think they were meant to be. We've not seen the last of them. After all, he does tend to walk away from that ship only to go back (The Lodger), but perhaps this time it was intentional. Maybe the Doctor felt it was too dangerous to confront the Silents in 1969 and chose instead to let human kill them for fifty-some years first.
I don't think anything in either episode said River was the bestest thing ever. I think people are reading into her character whatever they want, which is common with ambiguous characters. As I've said before, I don't see anything remiss in a passionate man who is the last of his species having a sex drive. Also, I kinda liked the switch in roles, with a man being the brains and a woman being the brawn. That being said, that last scene in stormcage was...awkward, for me at least. Somehow, when 11 is actively engaging that sex drive it's squicky in a way Ten never was. Perhaps it's because 11 seems more child-like, I'm not sure. It just seems really in your face to me. I don't know. *scrunchy face*
As mentioned, this was all after having only watched once, so I will have clearer thoughts later and will post them. **
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Post by Maggadin on May 1, 2011 14:53:25 GMT
I don't think that there's anything wrong with hm having a sex drive. I just think that it's a bad idea to give him an ''official'' Significant Other. That way it sort of makes it seems like it's the only relationship he's ever had that he's cared enough about to be ''showy'' about it and it'll divide fandom into ''Well, my OTP is the only canon one, so nyah!'' groups. It's better to keep it subtextual when it comes to the Doctor having romances, IMO.
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Post by clocketpatch on May 1, 2011 15:15:31 GMT
Er... I think that Amy's first message was revering to the Silents Merry - "I don't understand but I think they're sleeping, you've got to get out now" Creepy one-eye girl in the wall was incredibly creepy though.
And I've started to have thinky thoughts since last night:
(bearing in mind that I've only seen the eppy once and while, heh, not fully there)
The little girl is in a NASA space suit coming out of the River. When we first meet River she's in a space suit, coming out of the dark, and apparently the Moff fought really REALLY hard for that CGI effect of River coming out of the dark, saying he thought it was very important to her character.
Now, I'm not thinking the Moff has things planned that far in advance, but, it bears pondering...
(truth to tell, I rather want to punt the Moff up the rear right now, because these confusing attempts at grabbing interest often herald cancellation and DO NOT WANT. So stop it Moff. The formula is already as damn near to perfect as you can get it without fiddling. When you want to add tension TAKE AWAY from the Doctor's powers, don't add to them.)
Ahem, thinky thought two:
I love love LOVE that they actually addressed the fact that Rory is technically older than the Doctor now. That whole bit:
"The fall of Rome... I was there."
"So was I."
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
But now I'm wondering if the baby is so wibbly because Rory and Amy both have such back and forth timelines. Sometimes they exist and sometimes they don't - their baby is the same?
Mostly though, I'm just sort of upset that they're even implying a who-the-baby plotline in Who. WTF. I mean, it is one of the few plots that the show hasn't covered BUT THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT WTF!
Bad!fic is right Mags.
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Post by merrythemad on May 1, 2011 15:34:52 GMT
Clocket, I just checked and you are correct, remember I only watched once and don't hear well...le sigh, back to thinking that one through...
Maggie, I never said you did think he oughtn't to have a sex drive. I, however , feel compelled to point out the fact that River seems to be the first canonical relationship only makes River special and the best if you allow it. Don't commit presentism (imparting the current psycho-social valueset on the past) it really couldn't be addressed in the sixties or seventies because of the obvious race/age issue. They couldn't directly address homosexuality in the beginning either but nobody is kvetching that DW is trying to state gay people only exist in the twentieth century. Just because it's the first time the show is able to address it directly hardly makes it the first time it's happened, that's circular logic.**
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Post by Maggadin on May 1, 2011 18:40:35 GMT
Maybe, but I'm still of the opinion that it should be kept subtextual because DW is becoming too much romantic-love-is-the-most-important-love like just every other show. Also, by having just one single character know absolutely everything about the Doctor, they are making her more special than any of the others. Also I'm not sure what you mean by ''age'' and ''race''?
Another thing: the whole ''the Doctor will rise/fall higher/harder than EVER before'' is another one of those things that annoys me. I mean, come on, the Time War, anyone?
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Post by merrythemad on May 2, 2011 13:49:31 GMT
a few interesting things I noticed upon rewatching both episodes together. Do we spoiler warn now that they are aired???
1) Amy insists the dead doctor is a clone or duplicate (is this like when Eleven-ty tells us how he is going to win in the first ten minutes?)
2) Eleven seems awfully strange when we first meet him (and he's a year older than when Amy n Rory last saw him)
3) How does Elder Canton know to bring the fuel (clearly the Doctor tells him, but when and which Doctor??) How does he know Amy, Rory and River are about to meet him?
4) Eleven blatantly lies to Rory when pretending he has no idea what to do once they find Amy. He states early in "Day of the Moon" that Neil Armstrong's throat is his plan and also Canton was specifically after the Silents giving the order to kill themselves, the video message the Doctor got BEFORE talking to Rory
I'm forgetting a bunch cause it's early and I'm tired but certain phrases were repeated, questions where asked and left floating (like why do the Silents need a spacesuit? Easy Answer-for the girl, but seriously? they created the whole space race for one suit? Then why push to land on the moon? They already had the spacesuit why not call it off? also Who is the little girl? Is it Timehead (what I insist on calling Amy n Rory's offspring)? River? Amy? Even the Doctor (as some scary scary people have suggested)? I can't remember the rest, but feel free to add or answer anything you can!
Ooooh on a final note, I figured out a bit of why it's squicky. Eleven is awfully intimate for a man who hasn't yet kissed a woman, what will he do once the infatuation becomes mutual? hump her leg? **
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Post by johne on May 2, 2011 15:06:07 GMT
a few interesting things I noticed upon rewatching both episodes together. Do we spoiler warn now that they are aired??? I think we do, at least for a week or so -- aren't Australia a week behind? ] I took that more as the author showing his hand; fans watching are going to think "Maybe it's a clone or a duplicate", and Moff saying "no, that isn't the answer to the puzzle".[ ] We didn't see what was in his envelope. Perhaps whoever sent them (Amy and Rory and River and everyone else are assuming it was older!Eleven, but who knows?) put that in the instructions for him.[
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Post by Maggadin on May 2, 2011 16:07:06 GMT
merryThanks for putting that image in my head. Do you mean that Eleven hasn't ever kissed anyone or that the Doctor hasn't? (because Eleven was kissed by Amy and previous incarnations of the Doctor have been seen kissing women)
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Post by merrythemad on May 2, 2011 16:58:52 GMT
] I took that more as the author showing his hand; fans watching are going to think "Maybe it's a clone or a duplicate", and Moff saying "no, that isn't the answer to the puzzle".[ ] We didn't see what was in his envelope. Perhaps whoever sent them (Amy and Rory and River and everyone else are assuming it was older!Eleven, but who knows?) put that in the instructions for him.
Right we really don't know who sent the envelopes, are you of an opinion different than Amy, Rory and River's? If so do tell us it's more fun with loads of brains all toiling away lol. At any rate it seems certain that Elder Canton was given the most information. No matter who sent the envelopes I think it may be significant. How can he recognise the Doctor with absolute certainty is also something that may be worth considering seeing as how he hadn't seen him in how many years?[
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eve11
UNIT Red Shirt
Posts: 70
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Post by eve11 on May 2, 2011 23:26:02 GMT
merry I do believe he said "Neil Armstrong's boot" or "foot" not "Neil Armstrong's throat". And yes, that is odd, that he will say "Oh, I've got a secret weapon!" in the first scene but be rather "hmm, what do we do?" in the scene with Rory. But I think actually that it's not that he doesn't know what to do in that scene, it's just that he's not set up yet. So if he traces Amy back to the Silent ship and rescues her, then the Silents will be on to hiim and he won't be able to give them a talking to/warning to GTFO of Dodge or risk being immediately set up by now subliminally wary humans. What I want to know is how and why did they bother with the big elaborate ruse at the beginning of the episode--were they worried the FBI was in on it? Did the Doctor really get caught and then Canton had to infiltrate to rescue him? (this would be my personal canon buy YMMV). No way the Doctor (their best idea man and the cleverest of the lot) is the one who sits in Area 51 cooling his heels for three months. So maybe it was only a week or so. Dunno.
And I agree that a relationship with the Doctor and River is better as sub-text than text. My guess (?) is that the 200-year-old Doctor (who died on the beach) is the one that River really knew, and most of her adventures are with him. Then whoever retakes the reins when Matt Smith regenerates can decide whether or not River knows their Doctor too (of course, the crap stupid idea that they are going exactly back-to-front really puts a damper on this. Moff, you bloody stupid idiot. Honestly, WTF was with that?). Otherwise Moff has painted himself in a corner. I'd heard rumors Alex Kingston was going to sign on full for series 7 as the companion but if it's a plain text relationship between them... dude, I don't want to see that.
I think right now, that Steven Moffat needs someone like TIm Gunn to come along and tell him to "edit!" Because I agree with Clocket; all the "new viewers come in! We're understandable! Let's change everything!" and the "I'm leaving hooks to come back to later on..." etc. I've seen all that before and it was with Farscape, just after it got renewed for "two seasons" and then unceremoniously axed after season 4 anyway when its head writer couldn't get his head out of his backside long enough to figure out what the hell he wanted to write about. Ugh. Anyway...
A few straggling thoughts:
I am also wondering if the Children's home wasn't some kind of cloaked TARDIS or something. Rooms that change around. Creepy strange staircase. Weird little girl who starts off in Florida 1969 and ends up in NYC, possibly 2011.
(PS what Amy says to herself is "I can see them but I think they're asleep. Get out!")
Did the little girl start dying because she got out of the space suit? Was she some kind of failed experiment?
Does 909-year-old Eleven know more than he's letting on? I really think he does. Especially when they're examining the space suit and he says about the little girl "I have the strangest feeling she'll come to us".
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Post by clocketpatch on May 3, 2011 1:13:43 GMT
All told, I like your AU version better Eve. Please be finishing it y/y?
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eve11
UNIT Red Shirt
Posts: 70
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Post by eve11 on May 3, 2011 2:29:10 GMT
Still working on it. Must finish some RL stuff first.
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Post by jjpor on May 4, 2011 21:16:27 GMT
* I don't know about cancellation - I think the alleged downturn in viewing figures is, like last season, a lot to do with scheduling and the weather and is being blown out of proportion by those same sections of fandom who were acting as anti-cheerleaders to S5, ie the people who would like nothing so much as to see Moffat and Eleven fail for no other reason than that they're not RTD and Ten. Even though then it would mean they would have no new Who to watch... Fans, eh? What are they like? Still most watched programme after Britain's Got Talent and the big soaps, I think.
Although, to be honest, I think some part of me would rather see the show trying to do something interesting and different and fail rather than just play it safe forever. I was thoroughly fed up with RTD's way of doing things by the end of End of Time - don't really want to sit through another five years of it.
Although having said that, it wouldn't kill Moffat to answer just a couple of the dozen or so major questions that are still dancing around... I hope he knows what the answers are...
(Yes, I'm just bitter cause Eccles gave an interview the other day saying he'd definitely never, ever be coming back to Who for the 50th anniversary or anything else. He was very nice and non-bitter about the whole thing, actually, but determined on that point. So all my hopes and dreams for the future of Who are dashed! DASHED! ;D)
The majority of debate I've seen on the last episode on Livejournal etc actually centres around Eleven's ultimatum to the Silence rather than, you know, any of the interesting debating points from the episode... Along the lines of "Oh no, the Doctor would never suborn genocide (not that he actually was, if they'd been paying attention!) cause he lectured King-Arthur-out-of-Excalibur about guns in The Doctor's Daughter." Or some equally logical argument. To which anyone familiar with Doctor's other than Ten replied by listing story after story from classic Who where the Doctor did as bad or worse than Eleven does here, up to and including shooting people with his own hands and blowing up planets. And then the original poster replies with "I haven't seen any of those stories so I think I'm right" and it goes round and round in circles for a couple of hundred comments with nobody teaching each other anything...
Yes, I am bitter tonight aren't I? Sorry folks.
When I think johne has had the final word on the whole matter anyway - not that it was unethical, particularly, by Doctor standards, but that Seven would have done it so much more surely and efficiently. ;D
I agree Clocket - I wouldn't be thrilled if the Amy's baby thing turned into a soapy "who's the daddy?" sort of story. But then again, I think we're supposed to think that it's Amy's baby and that Eleven might or might not be the father, but that is some massive red herring. I don't honestly think they'd go there - not after making a rather laborious point of reaffirming Amy/Rory very strongly in this episode. I think it's misdirection. I have no idea what the deal with the kid is going to be, but at the moment I think the obvious solution probably isn't the obvious solution.
The woman with the eyepatch is going to turn out to be the key! Mark my words!
Regarding Eleven/River - I don't know what to think. I came away from first viewing on Saturday cheesed off because I thought - well if she really is just his wife from the future all of the mystery and flimflam about her imprisonment etc - just what was the point! I was all set for some jaw-dropping revelation about her true identity/significance! But then, thinking about it on Sunday and Monday - I'm like "but yes, that's the reaction Moffat wants me to have because it can't possibly really be that straightforward." And then I'm thinking, that's ridiculous, trying to second-guess the writing on the assumption that the writer's lying about everything - that way lies madness.
So, I don't know. I don't know what to think about any of it, is what I'm thinking. But I'm still quite liking all the character and story stuff. I currently still find the perplexity a good kind of perplexity rather than the annoying type, but I can see why people's mileages vary, certainly.
Still, pirates next week, eh? That should be good and hopefully not as confusing. ;D*
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Post by Maggadin on May 4, 2011 23:40:09 GMT
@jj
By ''that's what he wants me to think'', do you mean that he wants you to think that it's that simple or that he wants you to think it's more complicated?
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Post by IMForeman on May 5, 2011 11:53:14 GMT
Regarding River, I've never thought that the mystery about her was whether she was his wife or not. I'm not necessarily saying that she is, just that any romantic attachment is a separate issue from the other questions we have about her.
As for other things in this episode, I can't say I was entirely happy with the way that the Silence were taken care of. I don't know that it was OOC for the Doctor (although in all honesty, I think you could find evidence for quite a lot being IC for him, given his long history of being written by various people), but it was all very flashy and what I normally think of as being non-Doctor Who-ish, and I feel like Moffat could have perhaps come up with a better alternative, but perhaps that's me demanding too much from him. I did rather enjoy "So...what kind of doctor are you?" "Archeology." *shoots* "Love a tomb."
And yeah, I am totally baffled on so much that happened in these.*
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Post by Maggadin on May 5, 2011 19:56:27 GMT
Well, to be honest, I have trouble seeing why they would go through the trouble of creating a character who knows the Doctor better than anybody else in the the whole of Time and Space ever if they didn't write her for the express purpose of being his ''perfect'' Significant Other. Any other plot-related purpose could just as easily have been served by a companion or a one-off tertiary character.
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Post by jjpor on May 5, 2011 20:37:15 GMT
@ Maggadin: *I meant Moffat probably wants me to think Doctor/River is just a romance because the questions about what she did to end up in prison etc are still out there and he's presumably going to floor us with them at some point. At least, that's what I was thinking when I was eating my breakfast on Sunday. By lunchtime I'd flipflopped back to "no, River is exactly who/what she was billed as in Forest of the Dead - all the mystery stuff was flimflam."
Of course, as IMF points out, I clearly didn't have my Sherlockian deerstalker on when I was thinking those thoughts because the answer could well be somewhere in the middle.
I do definitely agree with you that, whatever appeal River may have (not much for you, I know! ;D) I personally am not looking for another Doctor/whoever OTP. Not outside of fanfic. In the actual programme that sort of thing doesn't really enthuse me. And it certainly is the case that Moffat has gone over the top with River to make her the kewlest thing evar etc etc. Unless that's all meant to set us up for the sucker punch...
I really am in two minds about who/what River is going to end up being, as you can see.
To be honest, and I know you're strongly going to disagree/laugh at me for a naive fool etc - I think flirting with River aside Moffat actually plays up Eleven's asexuality/awkwardness with romance to a ludicrous degree. Even if we disregard our own fannish inclinations, the idea that someone who spent as much time romancing Rose as the Doctor did (not to mention someone who talks fondly of once having been a parent) is uncomfortable with the very idea of kissing a woman etc just doesn't wash. Could be this is as you suspect so that Eleven/River will seem extra special or could just be Moffat's own take on the Doctor - but either way, pull the other one, Moffat.*
General:*IMF - I'd go along with that - while I have no trouble believing that the Doctor would be absolutely ethically and morally capable of doing what he did at the end of the episode, and that he would be happy to have River and her gun along to the confrontation (I mean, I just don't see it any other way - I hate to disagree with people, but I think all the people expressing outrage at this on alleged moral/ethical grounds are barking up the wrong tree. Badly.), I do think the execution lacked a certainl elegance. It should have been a chessmaster clicking his Queen in place and going "oh, by the way, checkmate." And we should have been in no doubt that not only was the plan brilliant but it was absolutely guaranteed to work and the Silence - well, were not long for this world. Hate to keep going back to him (not much! ;D) but you know, like Seven did in Remembrance.
Actually, though, I'm more or less certain that we'll see the Silence back before the end of S6 one way or another.*
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Post by Maggadin on May 8, 2011 21:11:42 GMT
Well, that's exactly what I suspect they're doing. They're making him sort of awkward and hands-off in order to make the tear-jerker romance scenes more speshul
Anyway, I get where you're going, but at the same time I also think they're a bit obsessed with emphasising how the Doctor's a BLOKE who likes WOMEN. Nothing wrong with being a bloke who likes women, but I find the need to assert his male-ness in every episode a bit eyebrow-raising. All that being said, if they're going to go in the Epic Tragic Romance direction with this then they'd sure as hell better imply that he's felt just as deeply for other people before. Fair's fair and he's a thousand years old, after all.
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