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Post by Stripes on Jun 6, 2011 13:27:39 GMT
Clocket, I too was really confused. This epsiode is just full of WTF and Fail.... I don't think we how to handle it.
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Post by merrythemad on Jun 6, 2011 21:30:52 GMT
I really wouldn't go so far as to say WTF or fail, some things bother me, greatly, and I fear he's overreached himself, but it WAS fun, even if it did fall kind of flat for me, I just hope the next half can tie up all the loose ends and answer the questions left open.
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Post by jjpor on Jun 8, 2011 20:33:19 GMT
I think I'm (mostly) with Merry on this - I didn't think this was a bad story by any means, and there was a lot to be entertained by during its running time, but...well, I've been sort of shying away from commenting on it because I've spent the last week or so over on Livejournal sort of sticking up for Moffat/Eleven-era and generally taking the position that "hey, even if it's not perfect it's got a better hit rate than RTD's period in charge mostly managed". And then, obviously, Moffat heard me because he goes and writes the episode of his I've enjoyed the least since...probably since Forest of the Dead, actually, which I wasn't exactly enthused by either. So yeah, since Saturday I've been feeling kind of bummed-out, if that's an appropriate term, and sort of anti-squeeful without really knowing why, because I do agree with the people who say it wasn't a bad story. It just felt so... For all the grandiose talk about the Doctor's nature and that, it felt so inconsequential. Fluff, really. Entertaining, even thrilling fluff, but...you know, two steps forward one step back? And johne's dead right about RTD, Moffat, Ten and Eleven and delusions of godhood, imho. As I say, I can't even muster the enthusiasm to critique this one at the moment - that might change in another couple of days, but, one thought: * So, River's been lying to the Doctor all along then? And he doesn't immediately ask her what the hell she's been playing at with all the lies etc? I mean, seriously?? Because I know I'd have a few pertinent questions for her if I was him.*
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eve11
UNIT Red Shirt
Posts: 70
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Post by eve11 on Jun 8, 2011 21:36:09 GMT
Wait, I'm confused. how was River lying to the Doctor?
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Post by clocketpatch on Jun 8, 2011 21:54:57 GMT
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Post by jjpor on Jun 9, 2011 22:40:09 GMT
@eve: * Well, "all the lies" might have been a bit strong, but, you know, she hasn't been telling him the whole story since day one, has she? In fact, she hasn't been telling even most of the story. You know, including the fact that she's like kinda-sorta-half Time Lord. Okay, okay, I guess we could assume that's because she wanted to avoid "spoiling" him, but still, I don't think I'd expect the Doctor to react to discovering who/what she is (especially with the stuff he'd just learned about her DNA etc) by simply grinning and straightening the bow tie a bit...
And in fact, that reaction doesn't really mesh with River's ominous/anguished tone when she was talking about "the day he finds out who I am".* @clocket: * LOL, it is kind of squicky when you think about it (and I'm glad it turned out Rory was the dad - gladder than you can ever know ;D), but I thought the little fakeout about the baby's father being very old, last of his kind etc etc was actually pretty cool. I sort of grinned appreciatively. Which brings me to my next point:* Generally: * Just to reiterate, there were a lot of things I liked about this story, most of them fairly superficial "hey, that's kewl!" things, I'll admit, but since when do I ever really get above that level in my reactions to Who? ;D And you know, the Doctor being fluent in Baby and the gay married Anglican Marines and most of the supporting characters were extremely engaging, esp the Sontaran nurse and the Victorian-lesbian-interspecies-katana-wielding-detective duo. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd write fanfic about them! ;D And the main cast were if anything better than they've ever been. Okay, Smith might have been better in Doctor's Wife, but Gillan and Darvill were turning in career-best stuff.
What sort of underwhelmed me about it was that once you got past that level and a bit of half-formed rhetoric about how badass and scary the Doctor can be, what was there to this story? River's identity aside, it didn't answer too many of the big questions or resolve too much of the story arc. Sure, we now think we know a bit more about the regenerating kid and the astronaut suit and so on, but I bet we don't really, not yet, and even River's identity wasn't the big shocking moment we'd been led to expect. What I'm saying, is I wanted some answers, I wanted some of the promise of this season to come good now rather than in three or four months time. I wanted Moffat to impress me on more than just that superficial level, the way he has on several occasions in the past. Just a few crumbs. Instead, we got a sort of shaggy dog story that hasn't really advanced us that much and just seemed like a cool sort of diversion to fill up a week or so.
And, you know, I'm willing to let a lot of things slide in the name of entertainment, but quite a bit about this didn't make sense. In what way was this threat worse than anything the Doctor's faced before? How did he rise higher and fall lower than he ever has? I didn't see it. It was nothing he couldn't have handled by himself with Rory's help, and hasn't handled by himself with his companions' help many times in the past - why did he need the Magnificent Seven to back him up this time?
And it was horribly paced. I appreciate that the idea was we were supposed to share the Doctor's delight that the crisis was so easily averted...while being conscious it couldn't be over yet and that the other shoe was about to drop. But god, that other shoe was a long time in coming! ;D And when it did come it wasn't the OMG!! moment it should have been. The Headless Monks were not, rpt not, the scariest thing the Doctor has ever faced (although the reveal of their boxes and why they're called "headless" was another cool moment in an episode filled with cool moments). They were only there to wrap up this episode and kill some guest characters who might as well have been talking about how they're going to buy a farm and settle down with their girl when the war's over, such was the obviousness of their impending deaths... You know, that's the point where the MASSIVE cliffhanger we'd been led to expect should have been sprung upon us. Yes, yes, I know, the revelation that Amy's baby was another ganger and that the real one was still missing was perfectly horrible, but even that was undercut by the realisation that, well, she lives (although probably suffers quite a bit in the meantime as the Silents/whoever train her up as their anti-Doctor weapon), but even that only took us back to where we already were at the end of the last episode. It all felt like an anti-climax, really, and then came the realisation "September??!!"
Actually, though, Eleven's moment with the dying Lorna Bucket was a nice little moment. Yes, he lied to her, but what was he going to do? Very well-played by the boy Smith.
But yes, that's my general assessment of this whole story - very, very nice moments and incidents and character stuff. It filled forty-five minutes of screentime and filled it very well, but I was left at the end with an overwhelming "...so that's it?!" when instead I was expecting to be stunned/squeeful as I have been with some of Moffat's "plot point" stories in the past. Sort of like biting into a big, impressively pink stick of candyfloss and then wondering where it went to. So, possibly all my own fault, then. Possibly the people who say Moffat's the emperor with no clothes have more of a point than I've admitted in the past (although I do think they overstate their case - because if it'd been an RTD "event" story, not even the cool candyfloss would have been as cool as he thought it was - and there would have been crying and kissing. Yes, even more crying and kissing).
But yes - let's whack Adolf, eh? No let's - I'll invent a time machine, you people collect the guns and bombs and stuff. I warn you, it'll probably involve disguising ourselves in Nazi uniforms - those sorts of stories usually do.*
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eve11
UNIT Red Shirt
Posts: 70
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Post by eve11 on Jun 12, 2011 0:17:46 GMT
jjpor: I would pull out the bits above where I agreed with you but would generally be quoting the whole thing back at you You summarize my feelings on the episode very well, actually. I liked it but at the same time I'm not really going to examine it all that much, for exactly the reasons you state. It was a good bit of filler but yeah, also problematic for the reasons you eloquently state.
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Post by jjpor on Jun 12, 2011 21:53:31 GMT
eve: * Yes, I mean, it was good, but we'd been led to expect more. And not just by our own wild fannish speculation as is the usual case, but by the BBC publicity and noises coming from Moffat's direction too. I do start to wonder whether there is truth in the idea that the split in the season this year was down to budgetary or some other non-creative concern, because if this had been a normal, continuous, 13-episode run, there wouldn't have been anything wrong with leaving the big payoff til the end of the season - this would have been just another "story of the week" episode by Toby Whithouse or somebody rather than what seemed like a totally spurious false cliffhanger. As I say, when all the sound and fury is over (and enjoyable sound and fury it was), we're more or less where we already were in terms of the story arc, apart from the stuff about River's identity, which could have been slipped in almost anywhere seeing as it consisted of all of a couple of minutes' dialogue/exposition. And you know for a fact we haven't heard the full story yet about River and the astronaut and the Silents and all that, and probably won't until the end of the second half-season. If then. So yes, I think this story was necessitated by having to finish the first half of the season on a bang, even though there are probably storytelling reasons for Moffat not actually telling us all that much yet. So, yes. I bet, for all Moffat's talk, the split was either not his decision or was his decision for non-creative reasons such as a less-painful way of permanently moving Who from the spring to the autumn "where it should be", which was my favoured conspiracy theory when they first announced it. *
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Post by Maggadin on Jun 12, 2011 22:07:12 GMT
I think it's been drawn out for way too long and they need to get it over with already.
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Post by jjpor on Jun 12, 2011 22:15:29 GMT
* I think it would be good to have a phased sort of series of revelations rather than trying to wrap everything up with a big bow at the very last minute, because that way likes potholes... *
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Post by clocketpatch on Jun 12, 2011 22:18:39 GMT
I'd have to agree with Maggadin on this. While I love a good over-arching story arc as much as the next speculating fan-girl, I think that a dependence on them is bad for the overall longevity of any show. One of the great things with the Who format is that it doesn't require any kind of arc to function -
You've got the Doctor and his magical ship, you've got the companion/audience surrogate, you've got the adventure right out the blue doors and you don't need to explain anything else. Anyone can join in at any time, and that's magical.
But, once it starts getting bogged down in arcs, well... I mean, there's blink-and-you'll-miss-them continuity references for the fans that don't really interfere with the plot-proper and that's well and good. Even former companions coming back can be handled with two lines of dialogue and suddenly everyone's up to speed. But when a show starts requiring close viewing of every. single. episode. I think that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of television, and puts demands on audience time which, frankly, not all audience members may be prepared to commit too.
I don't say pander to the lowest denominator, because in doing so you'll alienate everyone, but if you make your show inaccessible to new viewers then you're pretty much dooming yourself.
Granted, you've got to keep the old viewers interested to, and I can't say I'd do it any better. Also, Blue, Kirkg, Viron and the ratings on BBC America are proof that new viewers are coming in. So I'm probably just speaking out the wrong orifice yet again.
;D
Anyway, Good Man Goes To War, nice moments, fluff episode, not really a cliffhanger, wish each of the characters could've had proper episodes to expand upon their coolness*
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Post by Maggadin on Jun 12, 2011 22:18:55 GMT
No, I meant that I'm tired of the ''But wait! There's more!'' aspect of all this.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jun 12, 2011 22:21:25 GMT
Heh, I am too. I'm just not nearly as succinct about it.
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Post by Maggadin on Jun 12, 2011 22:29:07 GMT
Yes, but I don't really care about whether or not it brings in new viewers ATM, because I don't like this arc.* In other words, my wish to have this particular overarching plot just end already has nothing to do with what sort of impression it gives to casual viewers. It's simply that I find it utterly tedious. ;D
Now I'm suddenly envisioning Moffat popping up in the corner of the screen shouting ''BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!'' Billy Mays style
*In fact, I've never been crazy about any of the arcs, really. In each of the post-2005 series, my favourite episodes have always been ''standalones''. It makes me a bit bummed out that those episodes are considered ''fillers''.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jun 12, 2011 22:39:27 GMT
* I think it would be good to have a phased sort of series of revelations rather than trying to wrap everything up with a big bow at the very last minute, because that way likes potholes... * Yes, and plotholes are where the Daleks live...
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kirkg
Auton Daisy
"Hello, Sweetie!"
Posts: 442
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Post by kirkg on Jun 20, 2011 7:15:31 GMT
I liked it.
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Post by aquabluejay on Jun 20, 2011 11:44:56 GMT
There was much cheering in my basement during the first part of the episode, as they take Demons Run. ^^
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kirkg
Auton Daisy
"Hello, Sweetie!"
Posts: 442
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Post by kirkg on Jun 20, 2011 23:08:38 GMT
There was much cheering in my basement during the first part of the episode, as they take Demons Run. ^^ You're probably going to have to explain that, Aqua... it sounds just a bit strange... ;D
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Post by aquabluejay on Jun 21, 2011 0:41:24 GMT
There was much cheering in my basement during the first part of the episode, as they take Demons Run. ^^ You're probably going to have to explain that, Aqua... it sounds just a bit strange... ;D Uhhh... I think everyone here has been involved in the jokes about me hauling Lance into the basement to watch Dr Who, or just ambushing him down there.... So no, no really, I don't think.
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kirkg
Auton Daisy
"Hello, Sweetie!"
Posts: 442
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Post by kirkg on Jun 21, 2011 2:41:50 GMT
By the way, can anyone explain the significance of the title to me... A Good Man Goes to War... It seems to be read in verse by River Song over scenes of the conquest of Demon's Run. But I'd like to know if it's from some formal poem, or was it made up just for this episode?
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