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Post by Stripes on Jan 2, 2010 22:26:52 GMT
Am I the only one who got really dirty thoughts when The Master says "Oh, he just loves playing with earth girls"?
On another Note ** is the woman that followed Wilf around, and did the weeping angle stand and she looks at the doctor and cries. At first I thought it was The Doctors Mother, than I thought maybe it is Susan.... I really want to know who she is.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 2, 2010 23:07:19 GMT
Am I the only one who got really dirty thoughts when The Master says "Oh, he just loves playing with earth girls"? Newton, that whole SCENE was a dirty thought. I've decided that the woman in white was Susan. I don't know why, I just got that feeling so strong when she looked at the Doctor. And her saying that she'd been lost so long ago...
An when Wilf asks who she was, the Doctor just looks at him, and then at Donna, and back... and IDK I'm just shuffling thoughts around, but unless/until we get an explanation, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
In other randomness, was anyone else wonder at the baby Adipose in the bar at the end? And waiting for the Judoon to arrest the bartending for serving alcohol to a minor?
Just me?
Okay then...*
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Post by Stripes on Jan 2, 2010 23:20:44 GMT
Am I the only one who got really dirty thoughts when The Master says "Oh, he just loves playing with earth girls"? Newton, that whole SCENE was a dirty thought. I've decided that the woman in white was Susan. I don't know why, I just got that feeling so strong when she looked at the Doctor. And her saying that she'd been lost so long ago...
An when Wilf asks who she was, the Doctor just looks at him, and then at Donna, and back... and IDK I'm just shuffling thoughts around, but unless/until we get an explanation, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
In other randomness, was anyone else wonder at the baby Adipose in the bar at the end? And waiting for the Judoon to arrest the bartending for serving alcohol to a minor?
Just me?
Okay then...* *** I was wondering why the Adipose was there. I don't think the little Adipose was drunk, I think his babysitter was there for a drink and the little Adipose got bored and deiced to wonder around. xD
Ok, so I am going with the Susan thought too. I still want to know why the mention the weeping angles and why did some of the time lords do the covering of the face, like the weeping angles did. ****
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Post by jjpor on Jan 3, 2010 20:21:44 GMT
*Ahh, little Adiposes make me want to go "awww"... That one was not, however, being very well looked after by whoever was supposed to be doing so...
I think one of the things I really liked was the non-identification of the woman in white; you can make of her what you will, and I think that's a good thing rather than everything being outright stated. She could be Romana, she could be Susan, she could be the mysterious Mrs Who (that's what I thought because of the way Ten looked at Donna and her new husband when Wilf asked him the question), or indeed the Doctor's mother. In fact, I think one of the production team did suggest this was the case, but it's actually my least favourite option because it seems very random - I mean, when has anybody seriously speculated about the Doctor's mother?
I think RTD left it hanging like that to provide something for future writers to play off if they ever feel the need, a bit like the Master's ring at the end of Last of the Time Lords - I really do believe what Rusty said at the time about having nothing definite in mind about what it meant or what would happen next, it was just there to provide an excuse for him to bring the Master back if he wanted to. And I think the mystery woman is the same - there to be used if anyone wants to, and there to generate exactly this sort of fannish speculation, but whether it ever will be revealed on screen - who knows? Maybe it never will be, and I could live with that.*
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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 4, 2010 16:02:46 GMT
*** I was wondering why the Adipose was there. I don't think the little Adipose was drunk, I think his babysitter was there for a drink and the little Adipose got bored and deiced to wonder around. xD
Ok, so I am going with the Susan thought too. I still want to know why the mention the weeping angles and why did some of the time lords do the covering of the face, like the weeping angles did. **** Actually, if you go by the comicbook story "Cold Blooded Death" that could have been an adult Adipose. They may not get any bigger than when they are as babies. As for the woman in white, I like the Susan idea. It would be interesting and curious at the same time. Why would Rassilon bring her knowing her connection to the Doctor? Wouldn't that be a potential danger, especially if she turned on him? The same would go with any relative of the Doctor.[/color
My brother brought up another plausible and interesting idea I haven't heard anyone else mention. What if the woman in white is the White Guardian?
I mean she's dressed in white as the Guardian always was. Since the White Guardian could change his apperance, why couldn't he pretend to be a Time Lady. The woman in white seems to disappear and reappear at random points as a being like the White Guardian, influencing Wilf, and at the end, influencing the Doctor.
The White Guardian disappeared when the great battle of the Time War occurred, so he might have just returned to stop the end of existence, deciding that the Doctor is the key again as he was in the Key to Time series.
The more I think about it the more I like it. For all we know, perhaps the Doctor realised she was the White Guardian and knew his actions and decisions were being influenced again. Perhaps that is why she told Wilf not to tell the Doctor, knowing what he'd do if he found out about the White Guardian. Let's face it. The Doctor has never been a fan of either Guardian.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 4, 2010 22:39:45 GMT
* And perhaps the Black Guardian was somehow behind the whole Rassilon scheme to end the Time War the way he planned to, because let's face it, turning the universe into a version of Hell seems like the kind of thing he might quite like.
I've been thinking since Saturday, actually; changing history to save your own life, causing chaos in the process...what does that remind me of? And then I had this mental image of Timothy Dalton cutting a deal with the Trickster from SJA...
Who, it has been theorised, especially in light of the dialogue between him and Ten in The Wedding of SJS, might be some sort of aspect or face of the Black Guardian...*
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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 5, 2010 0:44:30 GMT
* And perhaps the Black Guardian was somehow behind the whole Rassilon scheme to end the Time War the way he planned to, because let's face it, turning the universe into a version of Hell seems like the kind of thing he might quite like.
I've been thinking since Saturday, actually; changing history to save your own life, causing chaos in the process...what does that remind me of? And then I had this mental image of Timothy Dalton cutting a deal with the Trickster from SJA...
Who, it has been theorised, especially in light of the dialogue between him and Ten in The Wedding of SJS, might be some sort of aspect or face of the Black Guardian...* Yes! I forgot the Trickister's mention of the gate. That would definitely go towards further proving the influence of the Guardians, especially considering Rassilon. Is he the original Rassilon?
If he is, then how did he return? I had been thinking the Time Lords resurrected him as they did with the Master in their greatest time of need, but what if he's alive because of the Trickister/Black Guardian? What if he made a deal way, way back to not die or to return to a point in the future, and that caused the chaos of the Time War. We've seen the Trickister likes to keep people alive that he knows will cause change for the worse. For all we know, perhaps this time line we are seeing in new Who should never be.... either that or I'm just really building a complex plot bunny here. One or the other.
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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 5, 2010 3:36:40 GMT
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Post by poetry on Jan 5, 2010 4:26:04 GMT
What do you fine folks think of this theory about the identity of the Woman in White?
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 5, 2010 5:37:21 GMT
Seen that. It looks kind of like there's something filthy going on below waist level doesn't it?
er...
Anyways...
Funny as it is, I wish that hadn't leaked. I mean, it REALLY ruined the big twist when it did. Because there's no way to deny certain things after they've been so clearly caught on film.
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Post by wanderlust on Jan 5, 2010 21:12:09 GMT
Opinions, shuffled about and unintelligible though they may be:
I thought EoT had good moments, but it seemed to be lacking something for me it. It was a bit like JE that way. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think it's because it has a certain hype about them. You know, all the companions, Rose's return, Davross, the exit of Ten, the return of the Master, Gallifrey... Very big deals, that going in I might have bigger expectation than are humanly possible, and that's my own issue to work through. *scratches head* Don't know. In any regard, I agree, to some extent, with JJ about Ten's schpiel with Wilf. It may be more, again, that I have out-standing issues that make me dislike it. These being that I know a great number of people who are so very depressed about Ten's leaving and that DW just won't be the way, and how (over here, at least) EoT was aired after a thirty minute special about David Tennant's reign as the Doctor. All I can think is, really? Eccleston didn't get that, and I can't say for sure, but I'm fairly certain other Doctor's weren't given that.... It'd be one thing if he was the very first, or even the second and everyone was pretending the first didn't exist, but he's not. He's Ten. Double digits and hardly original (in terms of being the first incarnationg on my screen with a shiny TARDIS). Besides those issues, though, I do see Clocket's point about the whole thing, and I think Ten's rant and everything was somehow fitting, even if he was a bit of a bastard I felt bad for Wilf because of it.
That aside, it was enjoyable to watch, and I love Wilf. He's a very sweet old man. Too bad I don't see much of an opening for him to show up again.
Mickey and Martha! Hahaha, all those 'shippers just punched the air!
.....oh. I was the only one who encountered those 'shippers? Okay. Just checking.
The Timelords showing up and then leaving again made me go....what? I get it and everything, but it was kind of like, Ooooh, Time Lords! *poof, gone* Wai....wha....? lol. Too bad. I want to see more show up. On that note, too, the Master dissappeared with them, so....does that mean he won't show up anymore or what?
I undoubtedly have more thoughts about the whole thing floating around up there, but because I might be coming off as a little more harsh than intended and my brain can only process so much at one time, I'll stop now.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 5, 2010 22:02:58 GMT
*I think I'm in broad agreement with a lot of what you're saying, wanderlust, but perhaps you're also right that the hype and the long period of expectation does partially explain some of the disappointment some fans have been expressing. It's hard for a mere television programme to live up sometimes to some of the fan-theories and speculation that have been going on beforehand. But yes, Journey's End - EoT did remind me of it, a lot.
I don't know if we'll see any of the RTD-era supporting characters again, at least not for a long time. It seems that Moffat is going to start with a clean slate, more or less, and the only things being carried over from earlier seasons are things like River Song and the Weeping Angels that were his creations anyway. So, I don't know if any of the mysteries highlighted in the article poetry posted will ever be picked up on in future stories, but it would be kind of cool if they were.
I really don't buy the idea of the woman in white being the Doctor's mother. I mean, I guess that if that was the intention, then she was, but it seems awfully leftfield and random. I mean, apart from the continuing head-scratching and jeering over the half-human thing from the TVM, I don't know if anyone's ever really speculated about the Doctor's mother. Mind you, I may be blinded by my oldschool Whovianity here, because I'm sure her being Susan or Romana or the White Guardian would seem just as off-the-wall to someone who had no knowledge of classic Who, as some NuWho fans may not. At least her being his mother is something everyone can "get", without any w*nky explanations needed, but it isn't a satisfying solution from my perhaps skewed viewpoint.
In the article, though...the figure in the back of the church - creepy! I hope it was significant, because wouldn't that be a mind-blowing Bad Wolf-esque moment?
But yes, Abby; I'm intrigued by the idea that the Trickster is/follows the Black Guardian, just from some of the suggestive things he and Ten said to each other in SJA, and that he/they had some involvement in what seems like a fairly major messing-up of history in EoT. And yes, Rassilon suddenly reappearing probably does warrant some such dramatic explanation, I'd say! ;D
Mind you, the idea that they resurrected every Time Lord, like, EVER to fight in the War is also an intriguing one (all of the Doctors too, and maybe even Doctors that never were like Shalka!Nine!)... And in keeping with the idea that it was all some sort of Guardian-inspired chaos...
So yes, very good plot-bunny Abby; go and write it! ;D*
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Post by wanderlust on Jan 5, 2010 23:03:57 GMT
Oh, I forgot to mention about the woman in white: so I know they keep saying she's supposed to be his mother and yeah it's kinda random and I'm only vaguely interested in that idea (I like the idea of it being Susan, really), but when I was thinking about it, things started to fall into a sort of mismatched puzzle in my head.
She kept appearing to Wilf, right? Well, when she did, I started to think maybe Wilf was a human turned Time Lord simply because she called him an old soldier. I'm still not really sure what was the significance of that, because it seemed a little deeper to me then just, well, he served in the military.... But anyway, take into account all the references of Ten being honored to have him as his father, the Doctor's mother appearing to him.... BAM! We've had ourselves a family reunion, guys!
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Post by johne on Jan 6, 2010 13:42:35 GMT
The Timelords showing up and then leaving again made me go....what? I get it and everything, but it was kind of like, Ooooh, Time Lords! *poof, gone* Wai....wha....? lol. Too bad. I want to see more show up. On that note, too, the Master dissappeared with them, so....does that mean he won't show up anymore or what? ] That's what villains do in RTD finales. They turn up, pose a bit, do nothing irreversible (except in Parting of the Ways, where because it's future-Earth the Daleks can devastate it to their hearts' content), and then get sent away again.
And as for the Master... he's come back from worse
[
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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 6, 2010 16:20:54 GMT
That's what villains do in RTD finales. They turn up, pose a bit, do nothing irreversible (except in Parting of the Ways, where because it's future-Earth the Daleks can devastate it to their hearts' content), and then get sent away again.
And as for the Master... he's come back from worse
[ *can't help but giggle at johne's comments* So right on both accounts, but particularly so about the Master. That's why I'm excited to see how he'll return again.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 6, 2010 20:02:20 GMT
* I don't feel too anxious about the Master either - by this point, it'd be more surprising if he didn't cheat death, and even if he hadn't this time, we'd never know it...there'd always be that sneaking suspicion that he was going to show up again some day...
And yes, johne's dead right on the subject of RTD finales - the other thing they tend to do is install a very big, very obvious reset button somewhere in or around their villainous lair, in blithe disregard of the fact that someone might, well, press it...* EDIT: * Oh, and apparently it's confirmed in RTD's new book (mentioned in the bizarre Torchwood musical thread) that the woman in white really was supposed to be the Doctor's Ma. Er, okay, Rusty...whatever you say...
I mean, if he says so, then I guess it is so, but well, okay unless we're fanatical believers in LOOMS (as I am when there's an "r" in the month), we kind of assume that the Doctor must have had a mother, once. And if Eight's frankly outrageous lies are to be believed, there's like a 0.00001% chance that she might have been human (??!!), but apart from that... What I'm saying is that if the woman was revealed to be any one of the other characters she has been speculated to be, even some bizarre future version of Donna or Rose, as some fans have theorised, that would be interesting, it would mean something in the context of Doctor Who. Even the mysterious Mrs Who would have meaning, because she is sort of implied by the existence of Susan, and Ten said he was "a dad, once," but the Doctor's mother... We know nothing about her, there's been no history of fan speculation about her, the Doctor's never mentioned her to my knowledge, there have never been any hints about their relationship... Unless Moffat picks it up and makes a big story out of it in the future, which he may or may not do, and I'd argue may not because he's supposed to be starting with a more or less clean slate, then it's meaningless. That's my feeling anyway. *
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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 7, 2010 0:02:19 GMT
* Oh, and apparently it's confirmed in RTD's new book (mentioned in the bizarre Torchwood musical thread) that the woman in white really was supposed to be the Doctor's Ma. Er, okay, Rusty...whatever you say...
I mean, if he says so, then I guess it is so, but well, okay unless we're fanatical believers in LOOMS (as I am when there's an "r" in the month), we kind of assume that the Doctor must have had a mother, once. And if Eight's frankly outrageous lies are to be believed, there's like a 0.00001% chance that she might have been human (??!!), but apart from that... What I'm saying is that if the woman was revealed to be any one of the other characters she has been speculated to be, even some bizarre future version of Donna or Rose, as some fans have theorised, that would be interesting, it would mean something in the context of Doctor Who. Even the mysterious Mrs Who would have meaning, because she is sort of implied by the existence of Susan, and Ten said he was "a dad, once," but the Doctor's mother... We know nothing about her, there's been no history of fan speculation about her, the Doctor's never mentioned her to my knowledge, there have never been any hints about their relationship... Unless Moffat picks it up and makes a big story out of it in the future, which he may or may not do, and I'd argue may not because he's supposed to be starting with a more or less clean slate, then it's meaningless. That's my feeling anyway. * Who says it is in some RTD book? What book is it? Cause this sounds more rumor than truth to me. Of course, an off-handed comment in a book or commentary isn't much in terms of canon or supposed canon (as I know some people think). I mean, if it did matter, then that hand picking up the Master's ring would have been the Rani not some random later we've never met before, and the Doctor and the Master would have been brothers (as supposedly some Third Doctor's writers planned). Still, I'd find it interesting to see if any of the questions brought up during RTD's run come into play later. If it is his mum, then I'd expect some explanations and details. As RTD mentioned in his last behind the scenes, he left it open and is willing to let the next writer to figure out how and whether to use it.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 7, 2010 22:38:28 GMT
I think that's a very sensible attitude from RTD - it would have been easy for him to do something irreversible or universe-shattering in EoT that future writers would not have been able to ignore, and I was one of the people who half-feared that he might do just that, but he didn't really, in the end, and we can be grateful to him for that at least. As it is we are left with a lot of intriguing hooks for potential future stories, but Moffat doesn't have to take account of any of them if he doesn't want to, and I think that's fair. As you say, even if that was his intention, and even if it is stated in the book as I've seen mentioned in a couple of different places online, it was never actually said onscreen, and therefore is only "true" if future writers let it be, and they might just as easily not. So, I guess all I was trying to say in my rant last night was that there are all these many options that have been identified by fans in the course of the past week, but the one that the author himself apparently intended is, to my mind, the least interesting of them...
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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 9, 2010 17:05:15 GMT
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 9, 2010 17:52:35 GMT
AH hahahaha... that's the one with the photoshopped eyebrows.
;D ;D ;D
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