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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 1, 2010 18:57:58 GMT
did any of you notice that ** matt smith is NOT listed in the cast as the eleventh doctor? I will be mightily erm miffed if they pull the wait til the end of the episode to do a regeneration that doesn't even complete itself too nuwho for me I think and gah! what am I turning into ?** That would be cruel, Merry. Does anyone know when series 5 starts, btw?
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Post by Stripes on Jan 1, 2010 19:34:40 GMT
**I still stand by my believe that timelords are or can be afraid of death. there is a reason why they try to live one incarnation as long as possible. Besides, there is too many hints and actions that implies that they are just as scared as humans. There have been other aliens who are/were afraid of death. Not so much like Cybermen.... but those guys are nuts.
Like I said, Death is unknown, to everybody, so i don't see how the writers are making the doctor human. I can see the doctor be scared of death, if it was up to him, he would travel the universe forever. **
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lostspook
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Post by lostspook on Jan 1, 2010 20:27:00 GMT
** I liked Eleven. ;D*** Other than that, can we just talk about Caves, or maybe Robots of Death, or Image of the Fendahl or Vengeance on Varos or the War Games, or The Aztecs or something, because that would be much more interesting. But I may be in a minority. :lol: I am a bad person. I sat there thinking wistfully of Caves of Androzani. And then of Logopolis. ("Well, that had plot holes, but it had something else, too.") And then The War Games. (Which was the only point when I came near to needing a tissue "They'll forget me, won't they?"). And Planet of the Spiders. ("Yes, that was self-indulgent, but it paid off at the end. And it had the Brigadier.") And then tried to decide whether Seven and Six's ends were actually worse. But I quite enjoyed it. (That wasn't dreadfully spoilery not to be whited out, was it?) Now, how about we talk about The Happiness Patrol? (Just so as not to be controversial or anything).
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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 1, 2010 20:46:26 GMT
**I still stand by my believe that timelords are or can be afraid of death. there is a reason why they try to live one incarnation as long as possible. Besides, there is too many hints and actions that implies that they are just as scared as humans. There have been other aliens who are/were afraid of death. Not so much like Cybermen.... but those guys are nuts.
** What hints and actions are you referring to, ratherbetraveling??? :/ I can't think of what you mean. Can you give examples? I'm curious to know. Perhaps there are ones I'm unaware of. If so, I'd love to be introduced some. I find them the best for inspiring plot bunnies.
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Post by johne on Jan 1, 2010 22:07:14 GMT
I liked Eleven. ;D Other than that, can we just talk about Caves, or maybe Robots of Death, or Image of the Fendahl or Vengeance on Varos or the War Games, or The Aztecs or something, because that would be much more interesting. Well, since we're on the subject, why does the Doctor go to Logopolis in Logopolis? It made sense for him to do that when he thought the Master was dead, but he knew the Master was alive before setting off. And in The War Games, do they send Jamie and Zoë home in the same SIDRAT that the War Lord's guards arrived in, or is it the TARDIS parked next to it? (of course, if you'd rather not rewatch that scene I quite understand!) I close with a suitable quotation from Terry Pratchett: ] "...and the worst thing about opera is the way everyone takes...such!!! ... a !!!! long!!!!! time!!!!! ... to!!!!!" [dies].[
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Post by Stripes on Jan 1, 2010 23:13:28 GMT
**I still stand by my believe that timelords are or can be afraid of death. there is a reason why they try to live one incarnation as long as possible. Besides, there is too many hints and actions that implies that they are just as scared as humans. There have been other aliens who are/were afraid of death. Not so much like Cybermen.... but those guys are nuts.
** What hints and actions are you referring to, ratherbetraveling??? :/ I can't think of what you mean. Can you give examples? I'm curious to know. Perhaps there are ones I'm unaware of. If so, I'd love to be introduced some. I find them the best for inspiring plot bunnies. I will do some research..... the two examples i mention earlier, about the master and that guy from the five doctors. This is something I noted but never really tried to remember, i just always had that idea that death was for everyone. Also, i swear i heard the doctor, or someone talk about timelords and how they live a really long time per generation, mainly because they don't do anything, but i swear there was more to it. that could be me mixing things up. I do have a rubbish memory.
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Post by johne on Jan 1, 2010 23:16:48 GMT
Also, i swear i heard the doctor, or someone talk about timelords and how they live a really long time per generation, mainly because they don't do anything, but i swear there was more to it. that could be me mixing things up. I do have a rubbish memory. "They live for centuries and have about as much sense of adventure as dormice" -- Fourth Doctor, in The Deadly Assassin
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Post by Stripes on Jan 1, 2010 23:21:44 GMT
Also, i swear i heard the doctor, or someone talk about timelords and how they live a really long time per generation, mainly because they don't do anything, but i swear there was more to it. that could be me mixing things up. I do have a rubbish memory. "They live for centuries and have about as much sense of adventure as dormice" -- Fourth Doctor, in The Deadly AssassinThat wasn't it... since i have never seen The Deadly Assassin. Thanks for the help though.There was more, it was like, three sentences though.
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Post by johne on Jan 1, 2010 23:31:15 GMT
did any of you notice that ** matt smith is NOT listed in the cast as the eleventh doctor? I will be mightily erm miffed if they pull the wait til the end of the episode to do a regeneration that doesn't even complete itself too nuwho for me I think and gah! what am I turning into ?** That may be because in "The Parting of the Ways", ] they put David Tennant in the cast list and everyone complained mightily about spoilers.[
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 2, 2010 2:27:20 GMT
Doctor... Doctor...
Your plan is to jump through a window and then??? Whaa?
The best part of this: Wilf & the Cactus People (sorry, was that racist?)
WORST RESCUE EVER.
"There are too many straps and buckles" will span all the worst sorts of fanfic in multitude. A little bird told me so.
And RASSILON? WHAT THE? RUSSEL? YOUR PLOT, IT MAKES NO SENSE! JJ, your version is better, and is now my official canon, over... whatever that was.
Always knew the Time Lords were bastards though.
And they never did tell who the woman in white was. Which is nice in a way, because fandom would have EXPLODED if they'd made her the Doctor's mother.
My new theory: it was Susan. Hey, if Rassilon was there... And her back story in the spin-off stuff..
But Wilf. Wilf, you made me cry. TWICE. I love you Wilf. I was watching this episode for you. Your comment on the people in their graves... and Ten still being slightly the bastard, but you could see how... and with both of them so broken... just the two old soldiers... and when the Doctor was talking about not being innocent... "but I got worse, I got clever"
All I could think of was Ace.
*breaks down again*
I was wrong, and I owe someone a fiver, but that's okay... "I think you look like giants"
:....(
And then...
I did feel bad for Ten at the end there. His little freak out... but knowing... KNOWING that he was going to do it. And Wilf... and...
Yeah, I was pretty much gibbering through the whole anti-climax.
And the Journal!
And Donna, with a decent bloke, and the Doctor doing what he could... I'm still mad she didn't get her memories back.
And mid-shipman frame??? I've got to say, that was one crack spoiler I wasn't expecting... and a Slitheen? O.o good use of old costumes, but wow, easy on the Star Wars Rusty!
And Mickey looks good with a beard. Mmmm...
So, I was all gibbery. And even Rose and Jackie. That was okay. (even if my brain was screaming PARADOX!!) but then there came the Ood Lullaby and I just lost it.
And not in a good way.
I mean, I literally fell over I was laughing so hard.
Was that Ood advancement plotline ever actually resolved?. Nope. Didn't think so.
Mind the plotholes, you could lose a planet down there... Oh, wait.
A bit rubbish on the last words too. I was kind of hoping for "Second chances, I'm that kind of a man". Really, REALLY hoping for it. But this works, the poor dear. He really did like being Ten.
And then... I was hoping for a different effect, but I guess they mixed it up a bit... and... still laughing... all I could think was "And then I farted and the TARDIS exploded!"
Er... um... yeah...
and then there's the new man, just swanning off in his place.
Matty!boy's first word was "Legs!" I kind of love him already.
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Post by Stripes on Jan 2, 2010 4:16:40 GMT
I am only 25 minutes in, but I am really enjoying this. Once again... I am the odd one out. Edit: I love how I didn't see any of this happen. I was surprised the whole time. I even knew spoilers! It was like... I knew nothing, I LOVE IT. I REALLY LOVE THIS EPISODE. *** I also loved the ending. I liked how there was a little fair well to everybody in Nine and Tens world.
It's not only Tens last story, it's all of his companions, and well Rustys world. Good bye Rusty World, thanks to you, I am a fan! I will miss you all!
Martha and Mickey, always on a crazy adventure working for UIT, ( I will admit, them being married was sort of random).
Jack, meeting someone new, moving on from his lost, and finding someone who may make him really happy.
All the aliens from the past five years, they too were a little goodbye.
Donna, getting rich and finding someone who she really loves and treats her well.
Even Tens good bye to Rose was sweet. Seeing her before she her major life change.
The Master, oh how i loved the master, saving the day, doing something good, the master being the old master he was.
How he still cares for the doctor, and the doctor still cares for him, and it always will be.
Wilf he was awesome, everything he said and done, was great. He has to be the most down to earth companion on New Who. I loved how he was willing to die to save the world with pride.
Sure, the others are willing to save the earth by dying ... well some of them, yet I could see them not be too happy about it.
How Wilf was willing to let The doctor live, just so the universe could be safe... I really admire that.
This was just amazing all around. *** I don't know about everyone else, but when watching tv, i tend to listen to the TV while doing something else. Not fully watch the screen. I guess that is why I like Audio plays so much. I found my self actually rewinding so i could WATCH certain parts. I don't re watch something right after I watch it, i wait a while... but i am so going to re watch this tomorrow. I loved this. I am not letting you guys ruin this for me.
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lostspook
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Post by lostspook on Jan 2, 2010 10:08:15 GMT
Well, since we're on the subject, why does the Doctor go to Logopolis in Logopolis? It made sense for him to do that when he thought the Master was dead, but he knew the Master was alive before setting off. And in The War Games, do they send Jamie and Zoë home in the same SIDRAT that the War Lord's guards arrived in, or is it the TARDIS parked next to it? (of course, if you'd rather not rewatch that scene I quite understand!) I close with a suitable quotation from Terry Pratchett: ] "...and the worst thing about opera is the way everyone takes...such!!! ... a !!!! long!!!!! time!!!!! ... to!!!!!" [dies].[ Firstly, :lol: Oh, you've got to love <i>Maskerade</i>! And secondly, no, I was not watching TARDISes during that scene. I may next time now... Having only watching Logopolis once, I find it a thing of mystery that is best not explained, only enjoyed. And actually, if I can enjoy a serial that spends a lot of time worrying about a girl trying to change the wheel of her car and then goes on about maths, I really should have no problem with EoT. And, go, Newton! You're not the only one, even if we're a lot of Classic miseries or something. Or I am, I suppose I shouldn't drag everyone else down with me. There was a lot of good in it. I could go all Pollyanna and list them, but I'm kind of enjoying agreeing with people, because you know, I actually liked JE. (Except for the bit at the end when they dragged the Earth by the TARDIS.) I mean, it was a cliffhanger of doom - it could only anti-climax from there and I've never seen a more enjoyable, mad and fun anti-climax. It was the nearest New Who has got to having 3 Doctors at once. Sorry, what was this thread about again? ;D
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Post by johne on Jan 2, 2010 11:59:20 GMT
Well, the mention of War Games was apt, because I think the first 20-odd minutes of Part 2 were what Terrance DIcks, on the commentary of that serial, calls a 'loop'. They started with the Doctor and Wilf in the Naismith mansion and the Master putting his evil plan into effect, and they ended with the Doctor and Wilf in the Naismith mansion and the Master putting his evil plan into effect. I thought the fast-paced new series had eliminated padding, but it would seem not. Please feel free to choose explanation from any of: 1. The Time Lords brought him back, like they did the Master. And whatever process they use turns people into twerps. 2. He's a wannabe who's using the name, like Napoleon III. 3. The Doctor's using the term as an insult, like 'Napoleon' (again) in Dad's Army. 4. Rassilon was the woman, not the Lord President.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 2, 2010 13:49:51 GMT
Please feel free to choose explanation from any of: 1. The Time Lords brought him back, like they did the Master. And whatever process they use turns people into twerps.This one does explain a lot, actually... ;D Yeah, let's talk about Logopolis! I love Ainley!Master in that - that and Five Doctors when I rewatched them for the first time in ages a couple of years ago, they converted me into a born-again Ainley!Master fan. I mean, the moron destroys a third of the universe, by accident, and then when he and the Doctor do come up with a fix, his first thought is to use it to hold the remaining two thirds to ransom! While doing that "please attend carefully" speech! Gotta love it! And Four goes out like a champ. Which brings me neatly to EoT Pt 2, although I don't want to be a basher, so first here's a list of things I really liked about it: * Wilf! Give Cribbins an award, somebody. I read online recently that Cribbins in real life did National Service in the Paras just after WW2, so I wonder if that thing about Palestine in 1948 was a bit of autobiographical detail they slipped in there?)
Dalton! I thought he was good value, anyway - too bad there was so little of him
Ten and Wilf! Both of their main scenes together were heartbreaking, and in a good way, not a Ten!angsty way (although Ten's little rant when he realised he was going to have to sacrifice himself to save Wilf was a bit dodgy - one of the things I didn't appreciate about the story).
Ten and the Master!
Indeed, Ten/Master! The shippiest shippiness in Who since...well, the last Ten/Master story! ;D A great little scene with them smouldering at each other, though, with Wilf going WTF at the other end of the room...
The cactus folk! (Yeah, yeah, feel free to throw things) Worst. Rescue. Ever. ;D
All of the Masters calling each other "sir" and stuff... The Chinese Army!
The missiles! Millions of missiles!
The ridiculous lifts from Star Wars - Captain Jack in the cantina with the suspiciously-familiar music playing and all of the aliens - Wilf manning the gun-turret!
Martha/Mickey - so sue me! I thought it was harsh on the guy Tom she was supposed to be engaged to, and people may detect some worrying racial assumptions going on, but... Martha and Mickey fighting aliens as man and wife! There's gotta be some fanfics in that...
We never found out who the woman in white was - shrewd move from Rusty, I think. Cf above comments re fanfics... ;D
I wasn't horrified/crushed by any of the Gallifrey/Time War stuff - ie, they neither confirmed nor denied anything about Romana. And I can totally buy the idea of them becoming mad gods in the desperation at the end of the War, turning the universe into Hell just to survive... I guess that was also supposed to be a thematic thing tying into the overall theme of Ten's impending end.
Although having said that...Rassilon?! WTF??!! (see johne's rational explanations above). Try and work that into your fanon continuity, fellow Time War theorists!
So, as you can see, even if I didn't fall in love with this story, I didn't hate it either, by any means. I view it much as I view Stolen Earth/Journey's End. Stolen Earth was 45 minutes of sheer crack piling on crack, and while it made little actual sense it was certainly quite enjoyable, and then ended on a MASSIVE cliffie! Journey's End continued from there, piling on a bit more crack while revealing the breathtakingly unpleasant plan of the main baddie (I don't think the Time Lords' big war-winning scheme here was quite as well done as Davros's REALITY BOMB! insanity), building to a climax that a) seemed perfunctory, like having constructed this plot they couldn't be bothered coming up with a genuine resolution, so they just swept it under the carpet so they could move on to what RTD presumably considers to be the really important stuff, and b) was TWENTY MINUTES before the end!
In a way, the fact that it was enjoyable up until that point is even worse than if it had just been rubbish all the way through, because you're left with the thought of how good it could have been with a proper ending. In both cases the endings really soured me on the whole story, and that's a shame, because I more or less liked everything going before the ending.
It was just unnecessary, really, and took any drama out of Ten's demise. It was like the plot meant nothing, just filling time before the inevitable regeneration, which didn't come out of the plot at all, was just tacked on.
The knock four times thing was good, though, the way it came out of nowhere like that. A good moment.
And then...well, I guess I'm with Abby on Ten's fear of regeneration thing. It's like the "they break my heart" thing in The Next Doctor, which I know some people liked, but really irritated me. I actually think that it was very in-character for Ten, the way he has been written over the past few years, but it really got up my nose for some reason. And it seemed to be part of RTD's efforts to make this the most unique, most important, most tragic regeneration ever, which is a tendency of his, I know, but it seemed almost as if he was trying to steal the thunder of all of the other Doctor transitions that came before, trying to say none of them mattered compared to this one.
I mean, apart from the very vague prophecy (and please Moff, can we not have any more prophecies for a bit?), there was no indication that this might really be the Doctor's final death or indeed anything more than just another regeneration. Yet we had Ten agonising about it beforehand in Pt 1, we had his really quite unseemly and unDoctorly rant when he realised Wilf was trapped in the radiation booth and he was going to have to sacrifice himself to save him. And then we had the "I don't wanna go" at the end which, while understandable, annoyed me quite a bit. Not as much as the TARDIS interior blowing up annoyed me, you know, the way it completely failed to do when Nine regenerated inside it, or indeed when any of the other Doctors who regenerated in the TARDIS did so...
Okay, so he did sacrifice himself for Wilf - of course he did, he's the Doctor. He was never not going to do it. But the way he whinged and ranted about it beforehand... Did Five do this in Androzani? Did Nine do this in Parting of the Ways for that matter? As I say, I understand completely that some people find it good to see the Doctor displaying this kind of emotion, underlining the seriousness of the situation, making him more real as a character perhaps, and moreover I accept that it's perfectly in-character for Ten the way he has been portrayed up to now, but it's not the way I see the Doctor. So I guess this is more an issue with Ten/RTD in general than with this one story. I think the Doctor's better than that, more selfless more heroic than that, or should be. He's not human - he's what humans maybe could be if we could lose our prejudices and pettiness and, well, human nature.
Mind you, having said that, I would have preferred a genuinely dramatic ending where the Doctor sacrificed himself and regenerated in the act of actually saving the universe from the Time Lords, instead of making Wilf feel like crap with his acting out and then taking a leisurely tour of all of RTD's favourite fanfic characters before finally changing to the laughably overdramatic accompaniment of choirs of heavenly Ood.
This is just my opinion, and is in no way meant to belittle or stamp upon anybody else's opinions. To those of you who really liked EoT, more power to you - as you can see, I really liked some things about it too. I just think I might have liked it better if some different choices had been made, but I guess this just shows yet again that I am out of step with a lot of the assumptions of NuWho when it comes to what makes a good story.
Anyway - on to Eleven! We can spend the next couple of months believing the Moff is the saviour who will put Doctor Who to rights! Until he proves us wrong... ;D*
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 2, 2010 14:12:41 GMT
*instead of making Wilf feel like crap with his acting out*
This. So much.
I actually liked that acting out scene, because it's kind of what's been festering underneath with Ten all along. I can't even call it selfishness, because it wasn't at that point, just this general sense the universe is ALWAYS going to kick him when he's down. Which it did.
And the acting was very well done. (though spitting? I though that was reserved for James B- Rassilon)
All that said, when Wilf was saying "Please, just go" all I could hear was "Please, just go, you're embarrassing the both of us and I don't want to spend the last two minutes of my life watching you angst."
Oh, and the Doctor telling Wilf that he's not important? He's the grandfather of "the most important woman in the whole of creation". I'd say that gives him several thousand merit points yeah?
Also he's Wilf. So add a thousand more.
And yet... while thinking all of this... I still sympathized with Ten. Because you're talking about human nature there JJ, and how the Doctor shows what we can do when we get past that. Well, I think that was that scene in a nutshell. Ten's final battle with his own hubris.
The end of Waters of Mars showed Ten admitted what he could do and be. This episode showed where that path had led for the rest of his species, for the Master, for Rassilon.
And then it showed Ten's choice, which he admits isn't perfect, and he does finally admit to being a bit of a bastard in his own right, to "getting clever". The one thing that strikes me though, in all of this, is Ten, I'm sorry, I'm SO sorry Ten, never once apologizes for his actions.
And the at the end, he walks into that chamber, and you feel so bad for him, because you suddenly realize how trapped he is by his own morals, by that slippery code he has to follow lest he follow the same road to oblivion as his peers...*
Right, that went off on a bit of a rant. I didn't mean it too. Um. Yeah...
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Post by Stripes on Jan 2, 2010 16:54:22 GMT
Well said Clocket, I agree with you 100%. *claps* I couldn't have said it better myself. Just one thing *** the "your not worth anything" to Wilf... I thought he was being sarcastic, kind of giving Wilf a hard time about wanting to die. Because he is important. He did a lot for the planet earth and he has a child and granddaughter to take care of.
Also, I am a little confused. Why were the time lords mentioning the weeping angles? Why were some of the timelords standing like the weeping angles? Who the hell was the lady crying in the end? She was the lady who was stalking Wilf. Is she the Doctors Mother? If so, did the master kill her? Or did he just put them back to where they belong?
I hope the master is ok. *is worried about her favourite villain****
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lostspook
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Post by lostspook on Jan 2, 2010 17:08:32 GMT
I know very little, but I can assure you of this: The Master is always okay.
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Post by Stripes on Jan 2, 2010 20:26:48 GMT
I can't believe I am saying this but I am feeling kind of down that the Ten and his friends are over. So, tonight, as I write my lab report, i am going to watch endless amount of interviews and guest appearances with David Tennant and Cathrine.
Well, he wasn't ok when he was all crispy and such. He fixed that problem. Come back Master. Come back.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 2, 2010 22:01:26 GMT
I know very little, but I can assure you of this: The Master is always okay. Indeed he is - always. You may depend upon it. ;D * I know what you're saying Clocket - I know what you're saying, absolutely. It is in many ways the culmination of Ten, as you say, the end point of a lot of stuff that has been going on with him for a long time now, and as I said, perfectly in-character for him to feel and act that way.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that this story highlighted for me some more general problems I've had with Ten and the way he has been written by, well, mainly by RTD without wanting to sound like a rabid anti-Rusty fanboy or anything, going back as far as S2, actually. And you know the kind of things I'm talking about, we've discussed them many times.
Having said all of that, I did think that the acting in that scene was top-notch both from Tennant and Cribbins - the tragedy in that scene was written on Wilf's face. And so very like Ten to rage against the moral code that he knows is going to compel him to self-sacrifice, even though that sacrifice is never in doubt. I took the think about Wilf not being important as bitter irony from Ten - I don't think he meant it, not by a long shot.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that I'd prefer a bit of nobility, a bit of stoicism from my Doctor, and I don't know if that makes me naive or out-of-touch with modern TV or a romantic or whatever, but it's what I feel when I watch Ten - always with the angst. So, it's a problem that goes far beyond EoT for me, but that's not to take anything away from Tennant as an actor and the way he played those scenes and I wish him all the best for the rest of his career.*
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Post by theguardian on Jan 2, 2010 22:03:29 GMT
*I think the EoT1 was off beat. It didn't really fit. To many plot holes. And EoT2 only filled in a few of them for us. With any luck *crosses fingers*, they will fix this with Matt's episodes. Doubtful, but still hopeful.
I LOVED WILF! Honored. He isn't the Doctors father, but would have been honored, and vise versa. I think that is just to cool. And him fighting in a battle after so many years just rocked. I nearly cried so many times because of Wilf. He went into that box (which any halfway-intelligent person would have realized was a BAAAAAAD thing from the word go. Why in the hell would you have one where someone had to be inside at all times? Sorry, it's just asking for trouble) to save someone. Sadly it was for the Doctors down fall. I almost cried when I heard the tapping. I may this time when I watch it again.
As for these Timelords... Dodgy bunch I think. They set everything up. They put the beat into the Masters brain. They mad him crazy. Sorry, that just seems wrong. All to save their own sorry bums, not thinking about what could happen to the rest of the universe. I agree with the Timelady that the Lord President killed. Maybe it was just their 'time'.
I am NOT a Doctor/Master shipper. Actually I'm repulsed by the thought. Not because I'm against homosexuals, I'm quite the opposite of that actually. But rather because their relationship reminds me of more of closer kinship. I'd hate to think that they were lovers. It takes away from the air and mystery about the two of them and the possibilities of the companions. I am a Doctor/River shipper. Though nothing so raunchy as I've seen on Teaspoon and an Open Mind.
Ok, there is my two cents. Or three. Maybe four. I'm sure I have more. I know I will after I watch it a second time.
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