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Post by merrythemad on Dec 31, 2009 15:25:56 GMT
okay so now I MUST ask
The last tenish minutes of that episode much less than all the rest, why oh why would a machine built to heal entire planets convert the population to a single entity? That doesn't heal the planet it ENDS the planet, only one person cannot procreate, so I ask this, did everyone aside from myself assume the MAster changed the programming? If he did why didn't the Vin Votchi note this when they said he had it working? It was absolute rubbish and I was offended RTD expected me to swallow it. Moving on I know how the cliffhanger resolves, for sure!!!! The Master will have to revert Earth to its former state ASAP once he realises cannibalism is one thing AUTOcannibalism is quite another, he has only himself to eat, yuck! okay so the last bit was a joke but the first truly, please explain my whovian friends, please!
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Post by primsong on Dec 31, 2009 19:05:14 GMT
What, you think this is supposed to make any sense? ;-D
A good point on the procreation aspect...unless all the Masters now wearing dresses are still, er.... Mistresses instead. 0_o On the other hand, let's not go there.
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Post by clocketpatch on Dec 31, 2009 21:14:49 GMT
I was assuming that the gate was originally developed by some kind of one gender clone race like the Sontarans. And I'm sticking with that.
The far more disturbing question of course, is what happened to the children, and to the pregnant women
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Post by jjpor on Dec 31, 2009 22:09:23 GMT
Don't...even...think...it, Clocket... RTD sure as heck didn't! ;D
*I thought the green cactus people built the gate, and they seemed to come in both flavours, as it were. It seems to me that while the Master clearly changed the programming to make it into a Master-replicating machine, the idea of a machine that "heals" entire planets at once is a bit of a strange one, and is really just an excuse for having the whole planet turn Master the way it did.,, It would seem that Rusty is not quite the cold, calculating chess-master we all took him for after Waters of Mars aired...who would have ever thought that? ;D*
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Post by librarylover on Jan 1, 2010 0:01:44 GMT
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 1, 2010 0:25:08 GMT
Naft as it might be, it's not like the idea is completely original. In fact, Rusty's mutilation of it here makes me oddly hopeful about Eleven and the New Year, if this is the kind of contrast we're going to get when Rusty and Moffat take on the same idea...
I'm talking of course, about the Empty Child. For it is totally the same plot.
(Except, I'll be REALLY weirded out if Donna steps up at the end claiming to be the Master's mother, because... O.o)
In other news, I found more spoiler clips, but now I cannot find them again, but it does not actually matter since tomorrow we'll have the whole darn thing.
Still, the Slash. Oh man. Oh man. The mighty, mighty slash. It's not even subtext at this point. ROFLMAO
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Post by Stripes on Jan 1, 2010 2:12:47 GMT
already posted, but thanks for the reminder, we were a little crazy on the master/doctor love. CLOCKET, I DO NOT WANT WHAT YOU JUST SAID. NO, No, no, NO! Donna.... being.... wneiufchekd no.
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Post by Stripes on Jan 1, 2010 5:21:09 GMT
My friend and I have been talking... he doesn't like the Ten/Master love. He thinks the reason they put all that Ten/Master slash is because it draws in fangirls. Which I can see.... I have become a dorky fan girl as he puts it. As we talked I suddenly felt like I has been tricked. I never want to speak of this again.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 1, 2010 5:41:15 GMT
a trick pulled by your neighbor or Rusty? Because I don't see Rusty doing that. the other producer though, something Gardener? IDK, it strikes me as something right up her alley... (which is strange, because I know next to nothing about her and probably shouldn't be pointing fingers. Still, call it a hunch)
Whoever's doing what, it's clear that Tennant and Simm ship it like mad. Which is just highly amusing to watch. And I don't think they've got any ulterior motive for doing so.
And, to be clear, I was shipping it before I ever saw Simm!Master.
Which is really odd, all considered.
I blame fic.
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Post by Stripes on Jan 1, 2010 5:48:15 GMT
My friend thinks the producers/writers/actors are all doing this to bring in crazy fan girls to keep the show alive. The old series had a lot of subtext, but the new series is in your face about it.... which makes the girls go crazy and brings in new ones, ones that read manga novels about two guys in love. I have been eating it all up.
I want the subtext, i want to be able to see them as lovers, yet, i could also see them as something else, like brothers (I thought they were brothers... until recently).
Though... i will never get over that clip.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 1, 2010 8:43:33 GMT
In the original story line they were going to be the same person. The Master was just the Doctor's Id, or dark side, or something.
Yeah... rewatch that scene with THAT in mind. There be creepy.
And what your friend's saying, I can see it. The Yoai fangirls are a lucrative market, because once you've got them, you've GOT them. And that's important, especially right before a transition...
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Post by merrythemad on Jan 1, 2010 14:40:08 GMT
I agree with Newton, she phrased it perfectly, bring back the subtext and ambiguity!
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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 1, 2010 15:03:06 GMT
Ok, at last I've finally been able to watch this episode. I'm going to leave my thoughts for the most part for later, but I will say this... it's definitely feels big and final (as RTD wanted) but I feel there's stuff that proves RTD was on something or other.... a bit strange to say the least. I just hope part 2 will explain at least some of it.
I actually have a inquiry I'm hoping you all will help me with. It formed in my head while I slept. I know bad to ponder fictional stories in your sleep, but it's niggling my brain, so any thoughts on this would be appreciated in keeping my sanity.
Since The Christmas Invasion, Ten has also seemed to be a very strong and often unyielding character. The sort that if you pushed him too far, as in The Family of Blood, he could be truly horrific. As he said in Christmas Invasion, 'he's a no second chances sort of man.' We've seen this might Lord of Time in the Waters of Mars recently.
To me this was one of the clear signals that placed him in the very alien, less human category. He was hard and very willing to do whatever was necessary to do the greater good or save people but prefered to avoid to do that. Now, I'm not saying he doesn't have a soft spot for those close to him (that's obvious in several episodes). I doubt you have have a heart and not occasionally cry.
Just for Ten, he seemed orientated more towards the extreme emotions: extremely happy and destructive rage with the occasional private tears. It made him seem more alien... as teh being he's been through many of his incarnations... less human like many of his companions.
However, when Ten suddenly started to breakdown in front of Wilf, admitting not only his fear of loneliness (which I'm fine with since it's existed since the First Doctor and earlier in Ten's life) but a fear of regeneration and dying, I was beyond confused and shocked. WTF? Since when has the Ten and the Doctor as a whole been afraid of regeneration. I know it can't be the most enjoyable experience, but this seems truly out of character for both the incarnation and the overall character. He's acting very human here. Since when does he think of each regeneration as a separate being that gets lost when another comes along.
I'm not saying he's happy about regeneration, but why is he morally terrified, especially since he seemed to have a death wish many series 3 and always was putting his life in harms way, not only in his incarnation but earlier ones.
My guess is either RTD is royally screwing up the Doctor making him steadily less alien and more human, completely forgetting the Doctor's earlier actions... or there's a plot point I'm seriously missing. (I suppose someone might come up with an excuse about him spending so much time with humans that he's living by their morality and standards... but there's got to be more than that.)
And why now? I mean Four didn't seem afraid when he learned of his impending death... then again... perhaps Four was just better at hiding it.
Can someone help me to feel less jaded by this change in the Doctor? Please? Tell me a good reason or tell me I'm not alone in feeling off-ended by this event.
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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 1, 2010 15:11:01 GMT
I was assuming that the gate was originally developed by some kind of one gender clone race like the Sontarans. And I'm sticking with that.
The far more disturbing question of course, is what happened to the children, and to the pregnant women Actually, CP, I was wondering that in terms of the SJA kids. Imagine Luke, Rani, Maria, and Clyde with the Masters head.
In fact, imagine all your favorite human companions on Earth with the Master's head.... Disgusting, mad... or frightening? You decide!
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Post by librarylover on Jan 1, 2010 16:07:45 GMT
However, when Ten suddenly started to breakdown in front of Wilf, admitting not only his fear of loneliness (which I'm fine with since it's existed since the First Doctor and earlier in Ten's life) but a fear of regeneration and dying, I was beyond confused and shocked. WTF? Since when has the Ten and the Doctor as a whole been afraid of regeneration. I know it can't be the most enjoyable experience, but this seems truly out of character for both the incarnation and the overall character. He's acting very human here. Since when does he think of each regeneration as a separate being that gets lost when another comes along.
I'm not saying he's happy about regeneration, but why is he morally terrified, especially since he seemed to have a death wish many series 3 and always was putting his life in harms way, not only in his incarnation but earlier ones.
My guess is either RTD is royally screwing up the Doctor making him steadily less alien and more human, completely forgetting the Doctor's earlier actions... or there's a plot point I'm seriously missing. (I suppose someone might come up with an excuse about him spending so much time with humans that he's living by their morality and standards... but there's got to be more than that.)
And why now? I mean Four didn't seem afraid when he learned of his impending death... then again... perhaps Four was just better at hiding it. Can someone help me to feel less jaded by this change in the Doctor? Please? Tell me a good reason or tell me I'm not alone in feeling off-ended by this event. A few thoughts . . . * What I think RTD is exploring here a little, which wasn't explored in the classic series as far as I have seen, is the fact that regeneration is a form of death. I thought that it was interesting, and wasn't offended by it at all. However, I don't think that the fear we saw was a fear of regeneration; I think it was a fear of actual death. He thinks he is going to die, forever, kaput. I don't think that makes him less alien; it makes him mortal, which he is. I have also often wondered what it will mean for the universe when the Doctor is finally gone forever. Since the Time Lords are one of the oldest species, the universe has really never had to get along without them. What are the implications of that? He certainly can't be everywhere and completely fulfill their traditional role, but at least he has been around to address major paradoxes and issues. Once he is gone, and the TARDIS dies, we are on our own. I think he fears that too, since he is responsible for the rest of the TL's being gone.*
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Post by librarylover on Jan 1, 2010 16:11:53 GMT
already posted, but thanks for the reminder, we were a little crazy on the master/doctor love. Sorry, I hadn't seen a posting with this clip of the Time Lords meeting. It did give me a squeeful thought though . . . how awesome would it be if Paul McGann got a cameo as Eight? It would be awesome for 2 reasons: 1. He was great and deserved more screen time than he got, and 2. if they managed to keep that quiet it would be major win, and would make all the red herrings they threw out there totally worth it!
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Post by Stripes on Jan 1, 2010 17:30:59 GMT
Ok, at last I've finally been able to watch this episode. I'm going to leave my thoughts for the most part for later, but I will say this... it's definitely feels big and final (as RTD wanted) but I feel there's stuff that proves RTD was on something or other.... a bit strange to say the least. I just hope part 2 will explain at least some of it. I actually have a inquiry I'm hoping you all will help me with. It formed in my head while I slept. I know bad to ponder fictional stories in your sleep, but it's niggling my brain, so any thoughts on this would be appreciated in keeping my sanity. Since The Christmas Invasion, Ten has also seemed to be a very strong and often unyielding character. The sort that if you pushed him too far, as in The Family of Blood, he could be truly horrific. As he said in Christmas Invasion, 'he's a no second chances sort of man.' We've seen this might Lord of Time in the Waters of Mars recently. To me this was one of the clear signals that placed him in the very alien, less human category. He was hard and very willing to do whatever was necessary to do the greater good or save people but prefered to avoid to do that. Now, I'm not saying he doesn't have a soft spot for those close to him (that's obvious in several episodes). I doubt you have have a heart and not occasionally cry. Just for Ten, he seemed orientated more towards the extreme emotions: extremely happy and destructive rage with the occasional private tears. It made him seem more alien... as teh being he's been through many of his incarnations... less human like many of his companions. However, when Ten suddenly started to breakdown in front of Wilf, admitting not only his fear of loneliness (which I'm fine with since it's existed since the First Doctor and earlier in Ten's life) but a fear of regeneration and dying, I was beyond confused and shocked. WTF? Since when has the Ten and the Doctor as a whole been afraid of regeneration. I know it can't be the most enjoyable experience, but this seems truly out of character for both the incarnation and the overall character. He's acting very human here. Since when does he think of each regeneration as a separate being that gets lost when another comes along.
I'm not saying he's happy about regeneration, but why is he morally terrified, especially since he seemed to have a death wish many series 3 and always was putting his life in harms way, not only in his incarnation but earlier ones.
My guess is either RTD is royally screwing up the Doctor making him steadily less alien and more human, completely forgetting the Doctor's earlier actions... or there's a plot point I'm seriously missing. (I suppose someone might come up with an excuse about him spending so much time with humans that he's living by their morality and standards... but there's got to be more than that.)
And why now? I mean Four didn't seem afraid when he learned of his impending death... then again... perhaps Four was just better at hiding it. Can someone help me to feel less jaded by this change in the Doctor? Please? Tell me a good reason or tell me I'm not alone in feeling off-ended by this event. LL and I think alike. After I read what you said, I thought what LL said before I read LL comment. I am going to add more. *** Timelords have always been afraid of death, like humans, and many other aliens. Death in the one thing no one knows. Just because Timelords live for 1 billions years doesn't mean they are not afraid. Look at the master, always trying to gain lives.... or that guy from the five doctors, who wanted to be immortal.
Regenerate is a form of death, I can see and undertsand. If you look back, there have been doctors who got scared, or upset when they had to regenerate. Maybe it wasn't in your face like it is here, but its there.
Besides, you have gotten so use to being a certain person, with certain looks and personality, the fact that you have to become someone new, and get use to that, leaving your old body is like death. If I were to have to leave myself and turn to someone else, i would be pretty pissed off.
I also think Ten thinks his death is coming, like final death, but don't worry ten, you won't die for good. You will become a vampire. xD ***
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lostspook
Auton Daisy
(Icon made by bibliophile1887)
Posts: 503
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Post by lostspook on Jan 1, 2010 17:39:30 GMT
Since sometimes I fail at the white out (I did manage it okay a couple times, so I know what to do, but not what I did wrong...), so I'll just say, I'm waiting for tonight before I make any comments other than. Hmmm.
But I actually really liked the bit Abby didn't with Ten and Wilf. I thought it was nice to see regeneration acknowledged as a genuinely big deal and not a swift change of face. It's kind of how I always see it - the death of that persona, even though at the same time, it is still the Doctor. (I think it's one of the reasons I can't buy into a Doctor/OTP across all his lives, even with Romana, logical though that may seem, because each incarnation is, while being the Doctor, so different.) It suited my personal canon. This is very unusual, so I was pleased. (Look, my opinions are Canon. For, you know, five minutes or so...) ;D
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Post by Abbyromana on Jan 1, 2010 18:39:57 GMT
Wow, I feel like enemy number one all of a sudden. Might as well paint a Master mask on me at this rate, so you all can shoot me down. Geesh! I never said I didn't like the scene between Wilf and the Doctor or that I was offended by the discussion between them.
In fact, I enjoy any scene with Wilf. A touching scene between them, dealing with Donna and the coming battle was fine by me, if slightly longer than I thought necessary. Of course, I suppose it was needed to give Wilf a reason for helping the Doctor, besides saving the Earth. In fact, I was reminded of two old soldiers chatting over past battle wounds... I was expecting a comment from either of them along those lines. (Here's hoping one will still pop up *wink*)
Also, I never said I have a problem with writers dealing with regeneration (dealing can be enthralling if handled properly). It was just the sudden emotional state of the Doctor befuddled me.
Reading your comments, I notice alot of you are speaking about it from a human's POV, but you can't do that (its like putting human attributes to an animal... this way only insanity lies *giggle*)
To me, it seems out of character for both Ten and the Doctor to suddenly worry more about his existence than the safety of his friends and the universe. Previously, he didn't seem very fearful of death when he kept leaping into harms way everytime before, so why now? Is it just the hint of a coming demise? As I said before, Four faced the same, but still kept himself focused on the safety of others over himself.
Also the whole 'fearing regeneration' seems particularly out of place in terms of Time Lord Society and mindset when you consider other Time Lords and Ladies' regenerations, such as Romana... who quite freely regenerated with a grin on her face. Even the Doctor took it in stride happily, only complaining on strange new body choices. There's nothing suggested in any of the TV stories that there should be such a concern.
So while it might be life changing, we haven't seen any clue in the past that treats it as such. Also, the way each Doctor draws so casually and happily from the persona and experiences of his past selves without remorse or regret suggests no sadness. Even just considering the story Time Crash you don't get a hint of that sadness or depression from either of them. When Doctors meets their next selves, they never act as depressed as Ten does looking ahead. Sure, they might not like the next them, but its irritation not sadness. I can see the last Doctor being fearful... since to him... he will be the end (unless the writers take action to change that).
Perhaps the tearful emotions, as someone suggested, are more due to a potential untimely death, but still... a bit over the top, I'd say, and out in front of someone he barely knows. He's never done that before. The Doctor doesn't catch me as someone who is so open about his feelings... he certainly hasn't been so with anyone else (fanfic excluded here). That said... I do appreciate your input and thoughts. It's nice to get other perspectives, so thank you all very much. If you have a chance, please give me your thoughts on the Master question... found under the Master posting. Otherwise, I might have to let my plot bunnies go wild on that theory.
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Post by merrythemad on Jan 1, 2010 18:54:03 GMT
did any of you notice that **matt smith is NOT listed in the cast as the eleventh doctor? I will be mightily erm miffed if they pull the wait til the end of the episode to do a regeneration that doesn't even complete itself too nuwho for me I think and gah! what am I turning into ?**
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