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Post by Abbyromana on May 8, 2009 18:13:13 GMT
Oh, and my opinion of River being more important than the other companions is: the Doctor generally only has one companion at a time, and for that time period that companion IS the most important person to him. So River is justified in saying that she is so important. At the same time, she's letting her ego get in the way a bit and taking advantage of the fact that the Doctor doesn't know the nature of their relationship to..exagerate things. River's ego is a point I hadn't considered. But it makes sense! She might see herself as important because the Doctor does have that habit of declaring his companions "the best of the best" and "brilliant". And as you said, lynda, she might be taking advantage of the Doctor's lack of knowledge of their relationship. *giggle* In fact, wouldn't it be funny that once he remeets her, first time for River, that he finds out that all the innuedo was just full of hot air. I wonder if he would be relieved or disappointed? Hmmmm.... Either way, a companion's ego definitely does have an impact on how he or she views his or her relationship with the Doctor. Thanks, lynda!
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Post by librarylover on May 8, 2009 19:19:43 GMT
Clocket wrote: "So River is justified in saying that she is so important."
I don't remember her saying she is so important, I remember her saying that someday he will trust her completely. Clearly there is some reason that he told her his real name, which he hasn't done with anyone else, so that does imply trust and/or importance to me.
The scene where he tells the Vashta Nerada to look him up is one of my favorite moments of the 2 episodes!
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Post by jjpor on May 8, 2009 21:48:41 GMT
I suppose it comes down to whether you like Ten's arrogant, Doctorly swagger or not...I'll confess, I kind of like it. A lot better than when he's feeling sorry for himself, anyway. You know, that "Well, actually, I'm the Doctor, so if you had any sense you'd be running right now before I do to you what I did to the Vervoids" sort of attitude. It can be quite appealing at times, provided it isn't overused.
I like the idea of the whole Doctor/River thing being some sort of self-fulfilling time paradox/loop thing; she's important to him because he met her in his past/her future and she told him she'd be important to him. Ditto with the name; he told her his name, because she knew his name, so obviously he must have told her it at some point, right?
I'd love it if Moffat reintroduced River and actually went down that route; it'd earn him about a trillion bonus points from me, and I might actually go down on bended knee and declare him the Second Coming of Bob Holmes or something... Imagine it; setting up all of those fannish expectations a season or two in advance and then knocking them all down, and completely subverting the whole Doctor/Rose "bestest companions evah!" thing at the same time... 'Twould indeed be sweet...
Not that I expect that actually to happen, of course. ;D
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Post by merrythemad on May 8, 2009 23:53:48 GMT
My, my, my such harshness from the fandom when River is mentioned. I must admit I didn't like her the first time I watched those episodes, upon re-viewings though, I found her a much more likable character. I do think she is sorely under-utilised in the aforementioned two-parter, though. As for the whole "are they aren't they", if she were to come back as character, I would hope they keep the oddly mistimed relationship. I rather like the idea of them racing toward her inevitable death, always in the wrong time for the other until KAPOW she's dead, they could even be UBERCOOL and have eleven show up at her house with a haircut and a new suit...and we can watch River leave the house the next morning (he could be parked across the street or the like).
Is she important, clearly, she is important, I'm siding a bit with LibrayLover (whom I dub LL hereafter lol) here. Whether timeywimeyness makes her important is a bit beside the point. As for the argument regarding all the special women in the Doctor's life why her? I think that's fairly simple. He's old and lonely. Isn't one safe place (especially as she has her own house, she isn't a full time companion hence not in half as much danger) worth what could be considered compromising his culture? Also he is the last, there could be some biological reason behind the turn-around...I KNOW! I'm just saying. I don't get why the Doctor having some sort of happy is a bad thing, even if it isn't the happy we would prefer. That stated, a bait and switch would be most awesome.
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Post by clocketpatch on May 9, 2009 2:41:53 GMT
Mel = fail!Donna...
okay, just as a disclaimer before I get into it, I make REALLY odd comparisons at times.
Both are played by Red-headed celebrity guest stars
Both are in dull obnoxious jobs: temp, computer person...
Both only leave because the Doctor messed with their heads: Donna got memory wipes, and I'm pretty sure Mel got hypnotised (at least, in MY fanon she did, because leaving with Glitz makes no sense otherwise...)
Both were present during a 'regeneration': Donna for Handy, Mel for 'Six' to Seven
and, er, other things that slip my mind at the moment.
I *did* say I have a penchant for making weirdness right?!??
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Post by librarylover on May 9, 2009 13:23:36 GMT
You know, that "Well, actually, I'm the Doctor, so if you had any sense you'd be running right now before I do to you what I did to the Vervoids" sort of attitude. It can be quite appealing at times, provided it isn't overused. Imagine it; setting up all of those fannish expectations a season or two in advance and then knocking them all down, and completely subverting the whole Doctor/Rose "bestest companions evah!" thing at the same time... 'Twould indeed be sweet . . . 1. Absolutely! You would think his history of success against the Daleks alone would make most species run away. 2. I would love it if he re-visits River, but I don't expect it to happen. Although Moffat does have a track record of setting up ideas and then using them later. Remember in "Blink" when the Doctor tells Sally that he doesn't always meet people in the right order? Plus that happened in "The Shakespeare Code" with the Queen, and although he didn't write that one I bet it had influence. I think the reason so many people have a problem with River is the same reason that the Doctor did; we dropped into the relationship (whatever it is) in the middle, she knows things that we don't, and she isn't sharing! He knows that she knows, and she knows that he knows she knows . . . classic, endless loop. I started to write stories about it because I feel compelled to invent a plausible reason why he would tell her his name. I am fascinated by motivation . . . or maybe I just overthink these things!
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Post by merrythemad on May 9, 2009 13:48:53 GMT
well, you HAVE to give River this much, clearly a very polarising character, eh? I read a really interesting essay regarding DW and sexuality written by a Cambridge professor ( and that they get paid to sit about and do what do here for fun irks me) I'll see if I still have it and if I do share it, but the gist was the lack of sexuality on DW was a DIRECT backlash at the feminist movement that was so popular during the Sixties and Seventies.
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Post by Abbyromana on May 9, 2009 15:17:26 GMT
As for the whole "are they aren't they", if she were to come back as character, I would hope they keep the oddly mistimed relationship. I rather like the idea of them racing toward her inevitable death, always in the wrong time for the other until KAPOW she's dead, they could even be UBERCOOL and have eleven show up at her house with a haircut and a new suit...and we can watch River leave the house the next morning (he could be parked across the street or the like). Well, it wouldn't be eleven. She recognized Ten, which would mean it had to be him (Ten, not Eleven), and their interactions would take place sometime during this intermission season betwen season 4 and season 5. I think also Moffat mentioned that it would be left unwritten to exist in the minds of the fans. I think this is probably for the best, since I doubt any writer could do justice to it to the fans liking, and I think it is better left to our imagination. Here alone I've heard more interesting and inspiring stories than I think even Moffat could come up with. ( BTW, if anyone wants a banner for their River or River/Doctor story, I'm willing to help? At the same time, I almost wish we could see at least one adventure between them either the first meeting or at some point where the Doctor and River were more even grounds of knowing each other. I think the additon of innuendo shippiness kind of ruined the dynamic between River and the Doctor in the episodes. If they treated their relationship more like his relationship with companions, like Donna, Ace, or SJ, I think I might have enjoyed it more during the episode. Of course, obviously they're relationship might be that kind, but the dynamic kept slipping from friends to strangers to, as someone previously mentioned, a bickering couple. This made it diffuclt for me as a watcher to really enjoy anything going on there and understand how I should feel about them and their predictament. I found more often than not I preferred watching the Donna story and kept waiting for it to return on screen, completely ignoring the Library story.
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Post by primsong on May 9, 2009 15:43:54 GMT
I consign River to the dustbin of 'dead end script pieces' myself - something one writer thought up that never flew.
Am I the only one who has their teeth set on edge by her name? It's SUCH a Mary-Sue name it makes me cringe.
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Post by merrythemad on May 9, 2009 22:03:53 GMT
Well, it wouldn't be eleven. She recognized Ten, which would mean it had to be him (Ten, not Eleven), and their interactions would take place sometime during this intermission season between season 4 and season 5. I think also Moffat mentioned that it would be left unwritten to exist in the minds of the fans. I know she knows Ten, have in fact, discussed it here (that they will blow her story line if they don't bring her back before Ten dies) however, her knowing Ten doesn't negate her knowing Eleven,and I don;t think he said it WOULD remain unwritten just how did you know it wasn't occurring already behind the scenes. I agree another adventure or two would be great, however. Also, Prim, I don't think tis fair to damn her to the dustbin as yet, Moffat taking the reigns is his chance to revive her character.
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Post by clocketpatch on May 10, 2009 3:06:58 GMT
Am I the only one who has their teeth set on edge by her name? It's SUCH a Mary-Sue name it makes me cringe. You aren't the only one. Though, I do wonder if it was a deliberate riff on Bernice Summerfield's name...?
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Post by merrythemad on May 10, 2009 13:34:18 GMT
See, it never struck me as odd, but then I went to Dead shows, people literally had names like Moonbeam and Rainbowsprout so I guess River Song is just sent to the same *smile, nod, accept, move on* section in my brain.
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Post by IMForeman on May 10, 2009 21:45:12 GMT
I liked River Song well enough, but I wouldn't like to see her return. I don't think she would, honestly. It would take away from the whole mystery of her character and the sense that the Doctor has all these other adventures that we don't know about. Plus, it would be dull - we already know her fate.
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Post by Abbyromana on May 10, 2009 23:07:53 GMT
Interesting point, IMForeman. I think her mysteriousness is one of the enjoyable parts of River Song. It allows us, the fans, to think up the adventures and imagine where she went and what happened while with the Doctor. However, I also agree with Merry that it would be interesting to see at least one story or hear from the Doctor about one adventure he had with her. It would provide an interesting insight into who River Song was and how the Doctor saw her after getting to know her. But perhaps, Merry's brilliant writing will be enough for me now! ;D I'll be waiting to see it, Merry!!! So please don't keep me waiting. I liked River Song well enough, but I wouldn't like to see her return. I don't think she would, honestly. It would take away from the whole mystery of her character and the sense that the Doctor has all these other adventures that we don't know about. Plus, it would be dull - we already know her fate.
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Post by primsong on May 11, 2009 0:39:19 GMT
...Moonbeam and Rainbowsprout ... Uh. Rainbowsprout? Somehow I can't see this person ever being taken seriously as a lawyer... on the other hand, I've met girls named Beige and Muffin, so who knows?
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Post by merrythemad on May 11, 2009 1:05:43 GMT
lol, aye seriously, though I doubt she has any real aspirations in that direction, then again I've a friend Muffy (male) great lawyer in Baltimore. So, I reckon one can never tell.
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