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Post by jjpor on Dec 25, 2012 18:27:14 GMT
Your thread for discussions related to the Doctor Who Christmas special, The Snowmen. Usual drill: conceal any spoilers or potential spoilers or potential potential spoilers however you want, but do conceal them. Only a couple of thoughts worth sharing after the first pass: No story-arcs, eh, Mr Moffat? Nope. No more story arcs whatsoever... Hmm...
"What danger could there possibly be from a disembodied intelligence that wants to take over the world using snowmen and thinks the London Underground represents a strategic weakness?" Made me snicker, anyway. ;D
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Post by clocketpatch on Dec 26, 2012 6:46:02 GMT
Oh Moff, you lying liar you
Butler Sontaran. The potato head shined more in this role than any of its clone batch ever did trying to conquer the galaxy - though I was highly confused about how said Sontaran was alive and where this episode was set chronologically.
The tophat. THE TOPHAT! The more raggedy than raggedy haircut. THE POCKET WATCH AND CHAIN! I wasn't really watching as intently as I should've been through the trailers, but please can he keep wearing these things at least some of the time?
And, in addition to the new costume... New title sequence? FACE IN THE TITLE SEQUENCE (which is creepy and half melted, but still) and doesn't the title sequence remind anyone else of Seven's? And, and TARDIS! New TARDIS!
Were there spoilers for these things online? I'm sure there must've been, but I haven't been in fandom enough lately to keep up and was completely struck down by this wonderful surprise. I was just clapping my hands with joy!
The majority of the episode had that effect on me: Jenny and Vastra getting a proper adventure (still not sure of the chronology), Eleven as Sherlock (with appropriate music), The Great Intelligence (and the Tube on a lunchbox lmao), Richard E. Grant (who I have wanted to see onscreen in Who for such a long time, and who I still want for Twelve because he would -nail- it and don't tell me he wouldn't), the invisible staircase (because that was absolutely beautiful)
The whole episode was beautiful, visually, and musically (?). I really enjoyed the music. The ending was more than a bit rushed and wishful thinking which seems to be a Moff thing even more than a Rusty thing. Moff really does seem to have trouble with characters staying dead, though it was fairly obvious that the highly touted new companion wasn't going to stay dead for long - especially after the souffles comment
Those snowmen were properly scary too. The ice woman not so much - but then, what's any Who episode without a few dodgy effects?
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Post by aquabluejay on Dec 26, 2012 9:16:12 GMT
Will post more later- But it now 4am and something I just saw on tumblr just made sense. Tardiscrash posted earlier today "The face is back!" and I was so sure she was talking about Jack. I noticed the opening and everything but it's only just now as I'm reading Clocket's post that I understand what she meant. I really need to get more sleep.
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Post by starpanda on Jan 7, 2013 3:12:51 GMT
I haven't figured out how to do the spoiler-thing so I'll just do this in beige. (Could anyone explain how to do that?) Holy crap!
Okay, I sort of half watched/half squee-ed through this episode. I was aware of the new TARDIS (It's a bit early, don't you think? I mean, the last TARDIS got, what, two years out of it?). But not the new title sequence! Which I absolutely loved. It was sort of like a mix of Seven's, Eight's, and Ten's with a different spin on Eleven's music. AND THE FACE! I have always hoped they would include the face sometime and they DID! ;D
As for the episode itself, it was pretty good. I loved all the incidental characters, with the Sontaran being my favorite. (The memory worm scene was just wonderful slapstick) The Intelligence reminded me of a mix between the Autons and the Boss from the Green Death. (Wait a minute - Sontarans, Silurians, Autons, the Boss - anyone get a bit of a Three-feeling here?)
Anyway, I'm sure Moffat will surprise and delight. I can't wait to see where the Clara arc will go.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 8, 2013 22:47:45 GMT
I find I liked it a lot better on a re-watch than I did the first time. I mean, I liked it fine on the first go-around, but the things I thought of as shortcomings didn't really register on subsequent viewings, perhaps because I knew what to expect by then and what the story was and what it wasn't. * You know, the stuff like the plotty parts of the story being rushed and a bit easily resolved, and the Snowmen and Withnail scarcely being in it (which was a bit of an exaggeration, but you could sort of see why some people said that given how heavily they were trailed in the promo material). But that's because it was another Moffatian shell-game, giving every impression that it was going to be one thing going in and then doing something else once the audience was safely sat down and in his clutches.
(And I don't meant that necessarily as a gushing fanboy lionisation of Moffat or anything, but we know by now that he does like the bait-and-switch thing even if in the last couple of seasons it has occasionally ended up being a bit fumbled or a lot of messing around for not much point...yes, I'm looking at you, Professor Song. ;D)
Still not my favourite Christmas Special, because whatever you may say about its creepy Unfortunate Implications re relationships and (literal) women in refrigerators, A Christmas Carol was as tightly-written as heck, as well as being another instance of Moffat knowing how to use time-travel as a plot point without rubbing the fact that it's a massive cheat in your face. Plus Matt Smith's turn in that is one of his best as the Doctor, imho. And Michael Gambon!
But this was still pretty good when you got a chance to see what the set-up was. We were led (or led ourselves) to expect a bit of faux-Dickensian villainy in the snow with all sorts of Christmassy-ness and incidentally introducing the new mysterious companion whose full backstory and connection to that Dalek story would be revealed in S7b proper, except...
I like the suggestion made jokingly by somebody on Livejournal (I think) that Clara/Oswin/whatever here real name is, is going to die like that in every single episode as the Doctor keeps meeting different versions of her wherever she goes. I don't actually think that's very likely, but it'd certainly be an unconventional approach.
At this point, I don't actually have a clue what the deal is with Clara/Oswin, and none of the fan-theories I've seen so far actually strike me as at all likely, so we will wait and see. I slightly ruined S6 for myself by trying to be too clever-clever in my private theorising, so this time I will wait and see, I think.
I also like the idea that the two versions of Clara/Oswin we've seen so far were clearly splinters of Oswaldoth, Second-to-Last of the Jaggaroth, because it fits all of the facts and at least it's consistent with Who "canon", but... ;D
And Jenna-Louise Coleman looks like she's going to fit right in - very impressed with her in both the stories she's been in so far. Her doomed never-to-be one-sided romance with the very Victorian Captain Latimer kind of cracked me up too: "You have a...gentleman friend...?"
Retired emo!Eleven was a bit rubbish, imho, but then I still haven't let go of my issues concerning the end of the Ponds' arc, so that might just be me. At least it wasn't full-blown Ten!angst and he quickly got over it when the game was afoot...
Madame Vastra and Jenny - excellent! ;D If ever two characters were designed to have fanfiction written about them... I think somebody definitely ought to team them up with Jago and Litefoot for a bit of period crime-busting (and let's face it, somebody probably already has and I just haven't found it yet). And Strax! No idea how he came back to life, but he was hilarious, and his interactions with Eleven never short of amusing.
Oh yeah, and Ian McKellen really sold his scanty voice-role, like he was some kind of Proper Shakespearian Actorr or something. ;D And while the idea that the Doctor doesn't remember the Great Intelligence, not least for being the cause of his first meeting his old mucker the Brig, strikes me as a little odd, if not suspicious, the nod to Who's past was very nice indeed.
Speaking of which - liked the new opening titles. Trying to something a bit different from the new series TARDIS-rushing-down-time-tunnel thing, and the face too...! And I think the new TARDIS interior is the best one we've had yet in the new series, although perhaps still a bit too "busy" compared to the budget-enforced but still iconic stark simplicity of the old series designs. All they need to do now is get a new version of the theme tune that sounds a bit more oldschool too...
So, bring on S7b, I say. Which, if the "next time" bit is to be believed, features Liam Cunningham as a Soviet submarine captain, Warwick Davies out of Willow, and monks. And Cybermen! *
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Post by Maggadin on Jan 8, 2013 23:40:27 GMT
I hope the whole Eleven not remembering the Intelligence is not a hint that they're going to retroactively insert certain plots or... characters... into the timelines of Classic Doctors and just say that the Doctor doesn't remember for Time Rift-y reasons or whatever. Let the Old Skool companions etc have their Doctors to themselves, I say! *waits for the barrage of Quit being So Paranoid ;D *
Also, yet another companion who's Speshul and Chosen by the Time and Stuff. Aside from Martha, no female companion in New Who has simply stumbled upon the Doctor and not been Bad Wolf/A Metacrisis/A Predestination Paradox/etc. I guess he only does pick you if you're Special, nowadays. Not saying she's not cool or anything. But what's wrong with someone just happening upon the Doctor and traveling with him without complicated Timey Wimey (The show's No. 1 Cutesy Catch-Phrase That is Getting Old and Must Die or at Least Go on Holiday for a While) reasons behind it all once in a while?
The Face is cool, though. Sorry, but I felt like saying it.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 9, 2013 21:40:38 GMT
Quit being so paranoid!
;D Sorry, kidding.
I...I would hope not. And I would hope Moffat would hope not, too. Tbh, while the Doctor not-quite-remembering the Intelligence is a bit of a hook for fan-theorising (and I've seen it mentioned in the context of such theorising over the past week or so), in reality it mainly comes off like a case of really belabouring the oldschool reference in a somewhat clumsy wink-wink nudge-nudge sort of fashion: "Great Intelligence, now where can I possibly have heard that before...?" sort of thing.
Which is a bit weird in itself, because surely fans who know what the Intelligence was/is had already got it by that point, and fans who don't wouldn't really care and just find it a bit odd. An uncharacteristic bit of hamfistedness from Der Moff.
Well, I say "uncharacteristic".... But that "Doctor Who? Doctor Who??" thing is getting really, really old by now. Much worse than "timey-wimey", imho. I mean, yeah, it was mildly amusing in a groanworthy sort of way the first time it was done, but the fifth or sixth time in the space of a season and a bit... I know, I know, the phrase occasionally came up in the old series as a bit of witty aside, but in these past few stories in S6 and S7 it's been positively egregious. And I can just imagine the Moffmeister giggling to himself as he uses it yet again like it's the funniest joke he's ever thought of. ;D
Regarding the new series companions being Special Magical Unicorns as opposed to Ordinary Joe (or Jo!) in the wrong place at the wrong time... I sort of see where you're coming from, but surely in most of those cases the "specialness" only came out as their character arcs went on rather than from the beginning? I mean, Rose, however silly (and creepy) Ten may later have got over her, initially just happened to be a girl working in a department store whose mannequins just happened to have been replaced with Autons. Just like Martha just happened to be a medical student at a hospital that just happened to have been picked as a hideout by a fugitive alien vampire thingy. And Donna just happened to be getting married to some bloke who just happened to be up to his neck in a conspiracy by ancient eldritch spider aliens frommadawnatime.
Amy, admittedly, just happened to live in a house with a crack in space and time in the wall that was directly linked to a deadly peril facing the Doctor, and I don't believe for one second that the TARDIS just happened to crashland at the bottom of her garden (she - the TARDIS - doesn't always take him where he wants to go but where he needs to go, we are told). But in her case, while I think we were supposed to believe on the flimsiest of evidence that her relationship with the Doctor was somehow "special" from his point of view, wasn't that in large part down to the fact that he had "known" her as both a child and an adult and bore (and knew/felt he bore) not inconsiderable responsibility for the way her adult life turned out?
I do agree, though, that in new Who the stories are far (far!) more likely to revolve around the companions themselves and their personal circumstances, and their relationship with the Doctor, than they ever did in the old series. And that isn't necessarily a wholly positive development, but I think it's more about the way this sort of television and its conventions changed in the sixteen years between Survival in 1989 and Rose in 2005 than anything specifically about Who or anything we can lay at the door of either RTD or Steven Moffat. Now, that Joss Whedon on the other hand, has a hell of a lot to answer for... ;D
Although, there is precedent in the old series, although there the Doctor-companion "thing" and the character's unique personal circumstances weren't dwelt upon to anything like the extent they have been in new Who. Was Ace the sort of proto-prototype-once-removed for Rose in that as in so much else? Not that her relationship with Seven was anything like Rose's dysfunctional "thing" with her Doctors, Ten in particular.
Hmm. Anyway.
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Post by Maggadin on Jan 9, 2013 21:58:09 GMT
Have people been speculating about in terms of a specific Character, or just in general about messing around with Classic Doctors' timelines?
''Which is a bit weird in itself, because surely fans who know what the Intelligence was/is had already got it by that point, and fans who don't wouldn't really care and just find it a bit odd. An uncharacteristic bit of hamfistedness from Der Moff.''
See, now you're just making me even more paranoid. ;D If it makes no sense otherwise...
Re: the companions - I don't mean ''ordinary'' in terms of what jobs they have. I mean that they're always ''pre-destined'' in some weird way by Time Itself or pre-destination paradoxes etc. And they always end becoming extremely importing for the survival of Time or Existence or The Universe etc. Donna is even called ''The most important woman in the Universe'' by Rose. Just helping to liberate planets or even saving Earth once in a while isn't enough. I know that it's following the current trends in society/media, but I'm comparing the show specifically to itself.
I hope I'm not turning anybody off with my wet blanket-mongering, but if I said anything else, I probably wouldn't be meaning it.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 9, 2013 22:43:34 GMT
Well, you have to be true to yourself, at the end of the day. No, I haven't seen anybody theorising that specifically - you're ahead of the game with that particular hypothesis. More in terms of just general "hmm, what if something's up with the Doctor's timeline...?", harking back to how important memory ultimately turned out to be in S5, echoed by Oswin/Clara's "remember" line. Which in itself reminds me of the bit where Spock lays his deathbed psychic whammy on Bones at the end of Star Trek II: The Wrath of KHAAAANN... And we all know how that turned out. Whales! So, while I'm not sure whether it was intentionally meant to be strange (at the moment, I'm guessing not), I'll certainly keep an eye out for that sort of thing once S7b kicks off. Regarding the companions - point, definitely. And I think it's a combination of the thing I mentioned above about the stories now revolving to a much larger extent around the regular characters rather than the situation at hand, and also the fact that in new Who it often hasn't seemed to be "enough" for the Doctor merely to save some people, or even a planet - it's got to be the whole frickin' universe just to be impressive, and there's got to be prophecy and destiny and whatnot involved. Again, something that maybe had its first glimmerings in the days of Andrew Cartmel and the NAs that he ultimately begat, but there the emphasis was slightly different. It was the "dark n' gritty" 90s, after all. But yeah, the contrast with old Who is definitely there. Old Who occasionally flirted with that sort of high-stakes scenario, but more often it told "smaller" stories with deceptive depth, where new Who has too often perhaps told broad-canvas tales with universes at stake but not a whole lot going on beneath the surface.
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Post by Maggadin on Jan 9, 2013 22:54:40 GMT
* ''No, I haven't seen anybody theorising that specifically - you're ahead of the game with that particular hypothesis. More in terms of just general "hmm, what if something's up with the Doctor's timeline...?", harking back to how important memory ultimately turned out to be in S5, echoed by Oswin/Clara's "remember" line.''
See, now I'm just plain terrified. Don't go there, Moffat. Please, please, don't go there. I'll do anything! *
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Post by jjpor on Jan 11, 2013 21:32:50 GMT
Anything?? Honestly, I would be very, very, very surprised (like Elvis-out-Bowie-ing-Bowie-by-suddenly-announcing-his-comeback-tour-level surprised) if that actually happened. Quite frankly, I don't think Moffat is quite so obsessed with the character I'm sure you're thinking of (he's pretty obsessed with said character, admittedly, but...that obsessed??) I don't even know if said character is even around any more - the more I think about her appearance in the Ponds' final story, the more final it seems, allowing for the obligatory bit of wriggle-room writers like to leave themselves. So, I honestly wouldn't worry on that count, although I appreciate it is easy for me to say that...
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Post by Maggadin on Jan 11, 2013 22:08:34 GMT
Well, I'm just thinking of what Alex Kingston said about River being sent back in time to assist previous Doctors. It's probably total nonsense, but you know me and worst case scenarios (and I'm not convinced that she's Gone Forever because the show would've made a big deal out of The Last Farewell etc).
But it's not just that, though. I'm worried about mucking around with Classic Who in general.
Re: ''Timey-wimey'' - it's more that it's so overused in fandom. It's just too cutesy-wutesy (*cringe*) for my taste. Come on, that line wasn't that clever. ;D
As an aside, I hope future!Oswin's name isn't actually Oswin. The UK will just get more and more American in its naming customs in the future, eh?
In all honesty, I'm probably not going to be watching the upcoming season until it's over. Watching almost any show in real time makes me nervous, rather than excited, especially with people flailing and speculating all around me, sending my brain into hyperdrive. It's a bit much for a fragile wee flower like myself. ;D
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Post by magnusgreel on Jan 12, 2013 2:09:16 GMT
Re: ''Timey-wimey'' - it's more that it's so overused in fandom. It's just too cutesy-wutesy (*cringe*) for my taste. Come on, that line wasn't that clever. ;D As an aside, I hope future!Oswin's name isn't actually Oswin. The UK will just get more and more American in its naming customs in the future, eh? [/color]. [/quote] ''Timey-wimey'' bothers me for that reason, and because any joke wears off if repeated endlessly. It mainly bothers me, though, because it's a sort of conspiratorial wink to the audience, basically saying, "Come on, we know no one's the slightest bit interested in trying to make any sense out of this sciency stuff, we all want to keep things light and fun, so we'll just take two seconds to poke fun at the complexities we know are there, and move on..." I know DW never did take on complexities in physics, of course, so I'm not quite sure yet why it bothers me in this way. I may figure this out later. I don't know the name "Oswin", and haven't heard of any Americans named that. I'd have thought it was one of those British names from some Celtic peninsula from the sound of it, like "Rhys" and those other Welsh names I'd never heard before from Torchwood.Thanks for the spoilers-- I may see this story in a week or two at my friend's place.
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Post by Maggadin on Jan 12, 2013 2:43:42 GMT
Magnus, * I'm reminded of that quote by Moffat about not putting too much science into Doctor Who ''because then no woman would watch it.''* * I'll be the first to admit that ''Blink'' is a very well written story (It's true! I don't actually dislike it, I'm just not particularly into it), but don't understand why that line in particular is considered such a feat of genius. I think it's another one of those traits of modern telly; snappy sound-bites, and as much ~irony as possible. Prolonged earnestness of any sort is right out, (unless it's about worshiping the Doctor). I'm imagining Three going ''Time-<i>wimey</i>, Jo!?'' This is not to say that I think that the Doctor should be earnest Hard Science all the time or anything. I'm just kind of thinking out loud about what that particular line says about the changes in the show, but I might be reading way to much into it.' * Er, anyway, to stay on topic: When I said ''American'' I meant more along the lines of using surnames as first names. This is not to say that it hasn't become more common in the UK, but from what I've understood (native Brits may correct me), it's definitely an ''imported'' trend. In any case, it's not something that keeps me awake at night or anything and I'm not bothered by it, as such. I guess it's just one more companion with a name that probably got them bullied at school, so it's just keeping with tradition, really. ;D
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Post by starpanda on Jan 12, 2013 3:12:43 GMT
I've gotten a few of my friends into Doctor Who to the point that they've seen all of the new series. (I tried getting them to watch Caves of Androzani, but that's another story.) Anyway, sometimes one of them will stick "timey-wimey" into a sentence with the expectation that I will laugh at our secret, inside joke. And I did, the first 20 times. After that, I really just wanted to change the subject, which is bad, because I love discussing DW. I don't know what it is about that particular phrase that makes it so popular, as to me it's no better or worse than any other of Ten's many sound-bytes.
I find myself sitting on the rail a bit where it comes to change to the show in general. I mean, what is Doctor Who about if not change? I do, however, find myself objecting to the proliferation of "catchphrases" and some rather unnerving changes to the Doctor's character. (An example that always springs to mind: Would Three treat Martha the way Ten did?)
Did Moffat actually say that? As someone who wants to major in physics, that's really rather insulting.
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Post by magnusgreel on Jan 12, 2013 11:18:04 GMT
Magnus, * I'm reminded of that quote by Moffat about not putting too much science into Doctor Who ''because then no woman would watch it.''* * Oh, that's definitely a clueless insult to women. More and more, I want to dump something foul-smelling and staining all over Moffat. And for "too much science" read "any science". By the way, the most science-heavy Trek show, Next Generation, had/has legions of female fans, who think and speak about the science aspects at least as well as the men. What about all the female science fiction fans and authors? I don't want a lot of technical talk, but interesting SF premises can give you a lot to chew over if you're interested, and can be ignored if the viewer wants, with good writing. Then we're all happy. Yeah, I saw some Buffy recently, and it seems to have started the light-teenage-jokiness thing... it can get insufferable, but it's a supposedly crucial part of "updating" shows now. Sometimes we get a dead-serious approach, but it's more just the appearance of it, with gravelly hushed "serious" voices and dark tinting over the screen, not actual depth. Comic book seriousness. I think I did just hear about this. The 19th century was a big time for last names as first names, in the UK and US. Maybe it's cyclical, and will come back periodically.
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Post by johne on Jan 12, 2013 12:24:11 GMT
(I don't think there's anything spoilery left in this thread of the discussion, so I'm not whiting out). Er, anyway, to stay on topic: When I said ''American'' I meant more along the lines of using surnames as first names. 'Oswin' isn't a surname; it's an Anglo-Saxon first name. (Looking up 'Oswin' on Wikipedia gets you a seventh-century king). The thing is, it's traditionally a male first name. Possibly the intention was that by the time of 'Asylum of the Daleks', the use has shifted, as names like "Ashley" and "Tracy" have today.
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Post by Maggadin on Jan 12, 2013 13:46:56 GMT
I stand corrected, johne. And I feel like an idiot for not knowing that... Prim, I agree that change has always been a big part of the show. But I don't mean stuff like Doctors, companions, TARDIS-interior, gadgets, design of the monsters etc. I mean more along the lines of.. ethos? And in some cases it isn't so much a change, as it's a near complete disappearance of certain traits and principles in the Doctor which, like you indicated, have more or less always been present pre-2005. And, yes, Moffat did say that. Not sure if he meant it as a ~common sense Mars-Venus men-like-science-women-like-humanities Truthiness type thing, but it's a pretty comment, all the same. And, again, I didn't mean to derail this thread or anything. Threads about specific episodes do tend to ''branch out'', so to speak. I hope I can be forgiven.
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Post by magnusgreel on Jan 13, 2013 18:36:20 GMT
Even as I was saying "Celtic", I was thinking "Oswin" probably sounded vaguely Anglo-Saxon.
Remind me to continue avoiding that Mars-Venus book. I'd be tearing my hair out.
I think that change that adds to the show is great, but that change that subtracts valuable things from it isn't.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 23, 2013 21:06:21 GMT
Urg. Moffat. Shut your mouth and admit you know very little about women. You're just embarrassing yourself now. Seriously. You can write and have a stunning imagination, now please apply that intelligence to revising your incredibly bigoted viewpoint on 50% of the population. Thank you. As far as it goes with The Great Intelligence, I automatically assumed that Eleven had accidentally touched his memory wyrm at some point. I feel like that's a smoking gun plot point in more than the context of this episode. I mean, didn't anyone else find it odd that the Doctor would be so cavalier about erasing memories? Especially after the whole Donna thing?
... I kind of ended up writing fic about this as a stocking filler.
An interesting theory I heard about Oswin is that she is somehow a personification of Who itself -
In the Snowmen, Clara was born very close to the start date of Who (actually, I think she was born on Nov. 23) and lived for 26 years. In Asylum of the Daleks, the Doctor is summoned by the Daleks leading to a short, one episode adventure set in the future (as relative to the viewer)... like in the TV movie but without the Master. Eventually, however, the Doctor comes back in current times and continues travelling (with modern Clara?)
It's a stretch I think, but a fun mental exercise in any case.
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