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Post by merrythemad on Sept 22, 2010 17:38:41 GMT
Whether Rory is plastic
Whether Rory was ALWAYS plastic
The silence n the exploding TARDIS
What makes Amy so special ( I included this as a number of others also feel this wasn't addressed by the crack)
Why did River remember when the whole Universe forgot?
For that matter who is River?
Who did she kill?
there are more, feel free to add them and address these questions as the wait dwindles down. Also, I have heard a HIGHLY convincing argument that Series Five is very negative toward women, I KNOW we have all heard this in relation to Moffat but this was a well thought out well presented argument (from kissograms to River to Mr. Pond), I'm not certain i buy it, but can we find any examples of series Five being positive toward women?
also there are niggling bits that strike me as mistakes (liz ten still being alive in 5151 or whenever it was HIGH among them, ALSO the weird dalek/android/bomb guy STILL working for Churchill) any chance any of you can make those not mistakes?
I just thought it might be fun to do something like this while we wait and so nobody else thinks we are zombies who only like to kill Doctors and Companions (the game threads people breathe, well unless you are undead)
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Post by jjpor on Sept 22, 2010 19:13:07 GMT
Having given this some more thought after it came up last week, my position now is that due to the whole rebooting universe thingy Rory now is NOT now plastic, but after the whole "something borrowed" thing DOES remember being plastic...don't ask me how that works exactly, considering Auton!Rory wasn't really him just a copy with his memories etc etc.... The silence n the exploding TARDIS What makes Amy so special ( I included this as a number of others also feel this wasn't addressed by the crack) Why did River remember when the whole Universe forgot? For that matter who is River? Who did she kill? From some of the teasing remarks I've been reading from Moffat over the past day or so (including the ones you kindly linked to, Merry), I think all of these are going to be very extensively addressed in S6. I hope so, anyway... Regarding Moffat and women, I didn't notice any more fail than usual really in S5 - I think the stuff about the "anti-gay agenda" as opposed to RTD's "gay agenda" may have some degree of merit, not that I think Moffat avoided representing any minorities consciously or out of malice. I am notoriously useless at spotting this kind of thing, though, not to mention a bit of a hypocrite in that I tend to cut stories slack if I like them (Talons of Weng-Chiang?!), so I'm probably the wrong person to weigh in on those sorts of debates... Didn't Liz 10 have some sort of anti-ageing treatment meaning that she was much older than she actually looked? How old/long-lived I'm not sure without a rewatch. Regarding Churchill's android buddy, I'm amazed Torchwood didn't spirit him away and dismantle him, but that may be my historical-TW obsession coming to the fore... ;D |
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Post by clocketpatch on Sept 24, 2010 0:38:34 GMT
Whether Rory is plastic
Whether Rory was ALWAYS plasticI think Rory, in the original!verse, was real completely through and through. Then he died. That Rory is gone. Amy's memories of that Rory got downloaded into Auton Rory 2.0. When the universe re-engined itself, Rory 2.0 got downloaded into a real body. Real!Rory 2.0 has memories of the re-engineered universe, and he has all of his Auton memories, but the real, original Rory is gone. D: my theory is depressing and sad. The silence n the exploding TARDISI'm going to blame the Dream Lord. I think Dark!Doctor is going to rear his hairy head next series, but Happy!Eleventy is going to defeat him and (hopefully) exercise a good a chuck of his demons in the process. What makes Amy so special ( I included this as a number of others also feel this wasn't addressed by the crack)I still want Amy to have some kind of mental illness which is portrayed as a [non] defining aspect of her character, because never gets portrayed damnit. Why did River remember when the whole Universe forgot?Because she is the River of time and is not part of the Universe. Because she is the TARDIS. Because she's the one who cause the silence... For that matter who is River?See above Who did she kill?the greatest man she's ever known. D: ...watch it be Father Octavius. As for the anti-Feminism, I personally think that the Moff's made his opinion on women rampently clear in his interviews. D: But... the episodes themselves... There's no getting around the fact that Amy is, essentially, a call girl (maybe she doesn't sleep with people, but she's still performing sexual acts for money.) And I'm not sure that's appropriate for family TV (correction NO IT ISN'T). At the same time, the fact that she wears short skirts isn't, by itself, a bad thing; it's a fashion choice. Let's not read into it. If she were wearing low cut tops and corsets at the same time I'd be worried. River (much as I have some problems with her, which I think are mostly with the actress and the whole OTP!! thing... but onwards) is a strong female character who constantly out-wits the male character. Yes, she uses magic lipstick, but she also leaves messages and this and that. She is an OLDER female character portrayed in a positive light - how many older female action heros are there anyways? Besides Sarah-Jane? She's basically a female Indiana Jones and that's amazing. Her entire life has been defined by the Doctor. His entire life has not been defined by her. Liz Ten is just plan bad bum. However, there was an old white dude behind the scenes... but he was just following her commands...?  I still think Liz Ten is bad bum and awesome. There's the woman in Vampires of Venice who has the creepy relationship with her son (CREEPY!!!) but she ultimately stands up to Eleven and pulls the worst guilt trip on him possible. But... in that episode, the "girls" were considered not as people but only as potential brides (or worse, as potential food) for their husbands in the water. There's the Silurian episode, but I'm not even going to get into that... there's nothing on Nasreen though. Actually, everyone just seems to forget about Nasreen when making these arguments, whether for sexism or for lack of representation. I really don't know why. Nasreen rocked! (which isn't to say there weren't issues... because there were... but Nasreen never gets mentioned in any of the arguments I read... which usually ends up getting pointed out eventually...)
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Post by IMForeman on Sept 24, 2010 15:02:24 GMT
I don't think Rory is an Auton. In the revised timeline, he never traveled with the Doctor, meaning that he was never there to get killed or to become an Auton. He has the memories of traveling with him, of course, but those things happened to original Rory, like the Amy who grew up without her parents. Skipping over the other questions, because they mainly involve speculation and I am not very good at that.
As for the issue of feminism, well, I do have trouble reconciling Moffat's comments about women with the show's depiction of female characters. Because the former is icky and makes me want to punch him, and the latter tends to lean towards the awesome. In the end, while subtext is all well and good and I'm glad we have some people looking for that, I prefer to look at the show in its own context. Don't get me wrong, it's still troubling though.
I'm not convinced that Amy being a kissogram wasn't just for one cheap gag of thinking she was a police officer at first. But since it is part of her character, I don't see anything wrong with it. It doesn't seem overtly sexual at all - coyly sexual, sure, with the outfits and of course the kissing, but I don't get the parallels to sex work at all.
Liz Ten was basically being used as a figurehead by her government, but then she abdicated the throne, which restored her power. I don't have anything more constructive to say about her than "&hearts&hearts&hearts", I'm afraid.
River not only has power, but she has power over the Doctor, meaning that their relationship is much more balanced than most. Her life is only defined by the Doctor because we only see her with him; every indication otherwise says she has a rich and full life separate of him. Everyone who knows the Doctor is defined by him to some extent, however, given that it is his show.
I do wonder about Nasreen, since she chose to stay behind with a man. It was presented as a good thing and for science, and she didn't die, but still, there was an element of sacrifice behind it. She was still great, though. I may be bitter because I wanted her as a companion.
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Post by merrythemad on Sept 24, 2010 15:29:06 GMT
Okay, as far as Rory, I don't see he can POSSIBLY be a human, his human self died and then was erased...unlike all the others (except the Doctor but he hid in the Pandorica so he was dead and not dead like Amy I imagine) who were just erased; hence, had Amy simply recalled the original Rory into being, he'd STILL be dead. But I may misunderstand the "science" behind this whole reboot anyway....(for instance is a multidoc even possible now?)
CP, I have more to say to you, but I must bathe n put the toddler down for his nap (thank heavens) so will either timeloop edit or respond in a tick.
As far as Amy n River, one has to admit both are really "ideal" women for a young adolescent males. Amy is a kissogram and sexually uninhibited and REALLY mistreats Rory, in order for this to be an acceptable part of her character, they make her a nut-job (which, being nutty myself, I adore, mind these are not my arguments just ones I have a hard time countering) and River, yes she may be powerful, she may be as smart as the doctor (in certain areas, I should have used knowledgeable not smart) but she is a prisoner, she ends almost every episode in chains...how is that a good thing?
I wanted Nasreen as a companion too, I just loved her, and I think, she, at least, made a choice based on love not on any weird kinky ideas in her head (ie Amy n quite possibly River). As for Liz Ten, she was again a caricature (much like Amy, ooh Im hot n crazy for Amy n oooh Im big and tough and deluded for Liz Ten) we saw NOTHING to suggest she was more than a ninny willing to be led, entirely.
The furthest toward any kind of misogynistic argument I will go is to say, Moff must like to be controlled a bit, he LIKES a powerful flawed woman and it comes through, but he DOES like them so I dunno...
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Post by Maggadin on Sept 24, 2010 15:36:28 GMT
Whether Rory is plastic
Whether Rory was ALWAYS plastic
IDK, I don't want to think about it because it creeps me out.
The silence n the exploding TARDIS
I think the whole ''silence'' thing is related to Silence in the Library or something.
What makes Amy so special ( I included this as a number of others also feel this wasn't addressed by the crack)
I wish the new series would stop making companions ''special'' because of things beyond their control. It makes it seem like you only get to travel with the Doctor if you were somehow predestined to.
Why did River remember when the whole Universe forgot?
Because she's the Doctor Only True Love or whatever.
For that matter who is River?
The Most Important Person in the Doctor's whole lifetime, apparently.
Who did she kill?
Somebody who wasn't the Doctor.
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Post by clocketpatch on Sept 24, 2010 17:50:16 GMT
I do wonder about Nasreen, since she chose to stay behind with a man. It was presented as a good thing and for science, and she didn't die, but still, there was an element of sacrifice behind it. She was still great, though. I may be bitter because I wanted her as a companion. Good point there about sacrfice. I'll have to mull on that. I wanted her as a companion too. |
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Post by jjpor on Sept 24, 2010 18:46:40 GMT
(for instance is a multidoc even possible now?) It had better be - IT HAD BETTER DARN WELL BE!!! Sorry to keep flogging this dead equine - but if I don't get my 50th anniversary multi-Doc story, it will go hard for Mr Moffat and/or whoever is running the show by then. Oh yes... Grrrr To be honest, I've kind of blanked the whole Silurians two-parter out of my mind - it was the only story of S5 that I actively disliked. Stupid characters behaving stupidly in stupid scenarios that even S1 of Torchwood wouldn't touch with a bargepole...I mean, their stupid even rubbed off on Eleven, who apparently condones the torture of children in the interests of alien science, to believe him in that one... I guess you're allowed one stinker per season, though... |
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Post by IMForeman on Sept 25, 2010 15:02:57 GMT
As far as Amy n River, one has to admit both are really "ideal" women for a young adolescent males. Amy is a kissogram and sexually uninhibited and REALLY mistreats Rory, in order for this to be an acceptable part of her character, they make her a nut-job (which, being nutty myself, I adore, mind these are not my arguments just ones I have a hard time countering) and River, yes she may be powerful, she may be as smart as the doctor (in certain areas, I should have used knowledgeable not smart) but she is a prisoner, she ends almost every episode in chains...how is that a good thing? See, I don't think the characters necessarily have to be interpreted that way. There's no reason to assume that Amy's character is fanservice for young men rather than just her character. She may not be the best girlfriend, but she's not supposed to be. She has abandonment issues and has never been shown to be very adept at emotional intimacy, plus she takes Rory for granted. Why presume that her issues were introduced as a way to make her treatment of him acceptable (which I don't honestly think is that bad, but anyway) rather than character flaws? Or more than that, a coping mechanism to deal with that time that the Doctor showed up and promised to take her away, only to disappear, leaving her to grow up with no one believing her? ...man, the Doctor ruins everything. But then there matter of her sexuality, which is not a character flaw or related to her issues, but rather one small part of her personality. Yes, I know there was a big deal made about it beforehand, but on the show? Also, I disagree about River. She's only been in three stories if you count the two-parters as one, and only in two did she end up in chains. The second one was partly a reference to the first. Plus we don't know the reason that she's there, but it's obviously for plot reasons. I will say that her ultimate end inside the computer taking care of those kids was the wrong decision, although it feels to me like Moffat was trying to come up with a more cheerful "everybody lives" type ending, and not thinking about the potential implications. Which doesn't excuse it. The furthest toward any kind of misogynistic argument I will go is to say, Moff must like to be controlled a bit, he LIKES a powerful flawed woman and it comes through, but he DOES like them so I dunno... I do think you might be on to something here. I get the impression that Moffat is slightly intimidated by women. Yet I still have less problems with his female characters than with RTD's. *shrug* |
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Post by clocketpatch on Sept 25, 2010 22:34:32 GMT
The furthest toward any kind of misogynistic argument I will go is to say, Moff must like to be controlled a bit, he LIKES a powerful flawed woman and it comes through, but he DOES like them so I dunno... I do think you might be on to something here. I get the impression that Moffat is slightly intimidated by women. Yet I still have less problems with his female characters than with RTD's. *shrug* I think both of them suffer from many of the same symptoms as Joss Wheedon personally. On a (somewhat) unrelated note, I found this article quite good: www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/03/is-doctor-who-bad-for-women/ |
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