We all Dream

[Stripes]

I nee to rush off to work, so here is the place to talk about today's episode. Again, i have no idea what it is called so i am going with my own title!


White out your text! Please and thank you

[librarylover]

** In my opinion that episode kicked a$$. Valeyard! **

[johne]

Well, I didn't guess it would be ]the Valeyard. I was hoping for the Celestial Toymaker

And when all those pensioners started opening their mouths, I was reminded mainly of Messrs Oak and Quill (in this video).[

[jjpor]

*This story wasn't actually what I was expecting going in - I was thinking from the trailer that it was going to be something very clever and twisty and plotty and kind of "different" after the manner of Blink or Midnight or something, but actually it was more focused on the characters. And that wasn't a bad thing; I thought this was a really strong story. Mind you, apart from the Dalek one perhaps (but only perhaps), I don't think there has been a weak story so far this season, despite what the haters and hardcore Ten-fans on some other forums would have you believe.

I sort of saw the twist that both realities were fake coming from a mile off - they weren't going to marry off Amy and Rory and give them a baby (not unless Team Moff are much more daring and convention-defying than I think they are - they're too determined, and rightly so, to maintaining NuWho's momentum and popularity to throw the audience a curveball like that (look, I'm using baseball terminology like a USAian! ;D)), or indeed slaughter huge numbers of primary school children. On the other hand, the "cold star" thing was patently ridiculous and they could hear the birdsong even when they were in the TARDIS...

The real twist, though, that the Dream Lord was the Doctor's dark side ie the Valeyard, even if they didn't use the term, I didn't see that coming. I entertained the notion that it might be the Master, the Toymaker, the Black Guardian, etc etc, but didn't see that one. Although I should have! If you rewatch it, the clues are all there. Not only does he dress as the Doctor and even imitate some of his mannerisms (and say "blimey!" a couple of times, just as Eleven is wont to do), but in the bit in the nursing home he's even pretending to be a doctor... But yes, a really good guest turn from Toby Jones, an actor who should be more famous than he is (he's been in quite a few things and excellent in all of them); you know, one of those guest performances where you can just see the quality.

And the regulars were all great too. Continuing to be in awe of the boy Smith - I say this every week, but quite simply he IS the Doctor. My absolute favourite Eleven bit was where he first arrived, and announced that he had crushed Rory and Amy's flowers...and then asked her if she was pregnant... ;D Rory and Amy were great in this too. You've gotta feel for poor old Rory, and it's interesting how one-sided and quite manipulative from Amy's point of view their relationship is. I think it reflects her damaged, off-kilter nature that we keep getting reminded of throughout this season, and also the fact that Rory is too nice a guy for this game. I don't understand the people who use this aspect of their relationship as a criticism of the Moff era. I think it's legitimate to dislike the characters because of it, but surely not the show - it's actually very interesting, character-wise, I think.

There was a lot of stuff going on here that I will have to think about and decide whether I like or not. Does the Doctor really hate himself more than anybody else in the universe? Is there something a bit, well, dodgy about Amy's willingness to kill not only herself but her unborn child because she thought Rory was dead? Or even if she didn't really think he was dead? So Eleven secretly harbours romantic feeling for Amy even if he won't admit them (although he seemed pleased that Amy opted for Rory at the end, I thought)? And Elizabeth I wasn't just a throwaway joke but actually happened??

But apart from all of that; another solid story with a nice twist ending, a great villain, nice performances from the regulars and yes, I rather enjoyed it.

Now, next week's I see having the potential to be a bit underwhelming. Daleks are Daleks, they're reboot-proof. NuWho Cybermen are rubbish compared to oldschool Cybermen. Sorry, but they are. So, rebooted Silurians...could go either way...*

[merrythemad]

** Actually, JJ, The Beast Below made Ten and Liz 1 true and more than a joke. I wasn't as impressed with this episode as I wanted to be, but I think much of that is due to misleading adverts. I agree it seemed it was going to be twisty and turny but was really quite straightforward. I DIDN'T like the Doctor one week shipping Amy/Rory and the next putting himself in competition with Rory over Amy. So not loving that; I was much happier with the "you were ten five minutes ago" because it put the pair more off-kilter and seemed to offset his youthful appearance quite well.

To be perfectly honest, the Dream Lord as the Valeyard hadn't even occurred to me until you lot said it (I'm ashamed I'm so sorry). I guess I was just so wrapped in figuring out who he was (The Master The Mara et cetra) that i was disappointed when they said it was his "dark side" and stopped listening. I'll have to watch it again to see whether I agree. I have more to add but lost my train of thought, I'll either edit or post again later!**

[librarylover]

May 16, 2010 23:23:37 GMT merrythemad said:

** Actually, JJ, The Beast Below made Ten and Liz 1 true and more than a joke. I wasn't as impressed with this episode as I wanted to be, but I think much of that is due to misleading adverts. I agree it seemed it was going to be twisty and turny but was really quite straightforward. I DIDN'T like the Doctor one week shipping Amy/Rory and the next putting himself in competition with Rory over Amy. So not loving that; I was much happier with the "you were ten five minutes ago" because it put the pair more off-kilter and seemed to offset his youthful appearance quite well.

To be perfectly honest, the Dream Lord as the Valeyard hadn't even occurred to me until you lot said it (I'm ashamed I'm so sorry). I guess I was just so wrapped in figuring out who he was (The Master The Mara et cetra) that i was disappointed when they said it was his "dark side" and stopped listening. I'll have to watch it again to see whether I agree. I have more to add but lost my train of thought, I'll either edit or post again later!**

** I disagree with the interpretation that a lot of people are putting on the "competition" comment. I don't think the Doctor meant he is competing for her on a romantic level; I think he just meant he is competing to keep her as his companion. I mean the choice was travel in the TARDIS or stay on Earth . . . Rory was there either way. Getting married probably would spell the end of traveling with the Doctor. Also, on an alternative, timey wimey note, maybe he needs to prevent her from "growing up" until he can figure out and fix the problem with time. (Although I have to say I resent the implication that marriage is what makes you grow up, just a little bit!) **

[Stripes]

Loved every moment of it. Didn't see any of the twisit coming. Was very happy and will watch it again.

[jjpor]

I think it's one that you could quite easily watch more than once, just to see all of the hints at the "twist" that didn't seem significant the first time you saw it, but they're there...

*Interesting that there was no direct mention of the crack/the silence this ep, when we've had them all the way through up to now? Significant? Or did this ep really not have anything to do with the season arc? And was the Dream Lord's reflection in the console at the end just a nice way to end the ep or have we not seen the last of him??

Yeah, agreed that the "competition", and indeed Amy's real choice, was not so much a romantic one as a competition of two different ways of life Amy could choose; the "grown up" life married to Rory or the "childish" life of adventure with the Doctor. And agreed that that's actually a pretty problematic take on things, and seems to go against something fundamentally Who-like - because up to now the party line, as it were, has always been that "growing up" is actually pretty dull, and not something the Doctor ever plans on doing. But I suppose it's nice to have the other side of the argument stated, anyway; and I don't actually think Amy has chosen to "grow up", she's just decided that she wants Rory in her life come what may, and that's a big moment for her character and hopefully she'll treat him a bit better from now on. Wouldn't bank on it, mind, Doctor Who being Doctor Who...

As for the romantic thing - it was hinted at by the Dream Lord on more than one occasion, but then again he is supposed to be the Doctor's self-loathing subconscious, so maybe this is something the Doctor worries about feeling towards Amy, given how wrong the idea clearly seems to him. Certainly, the conscious Doctor seems very happy at the idea of Amy/Rory, perhaps thinking that it removes that potentially problematic aspect from his relationship with Amy (which was really coming from her rather than from him).

I'm still not sure how I feel about the idea that Amy was willing to kill herself, while pregnant, rather than live without Rory. That's a bit problematic to me too.

As for the rest of it - very well written and acted by all involved and I really did like it. It did, though, as I've said, surprise me by being so straightforward, but I think that's down to the publicity leading me to believe that it was going to be a different type of story than we actually got.*

[Stripes]

**I do not see a big deal with this Ami killing herself with the baby.

It was the dream world.

This is her, Rory's and the doctors dream, for Ami and Rory to live a happy life raising a child. they wouldn't dream of Rory dying. Thus is why she knew she had to kill herself.

[jjpor]

*Yeah, I guess so. She did seem very, very sure, though; a pretty big gamble on her part.*

[Maggadin]

My ''review'' what I posted on LJ:

General Thoughts and Observations
- Was anyone else sort of rooting for the Dream Lord to be The Celestial Toymaker or at least an Eternal? I was, but the chances of that dropped very dramatically when the Doctor said ''Only you could hate me this much'' at which point I'm sure several of you (yes, including me) went OMG!Master. I notice that Moffat isn't as fond of shout-outs to old times as RTD, though, so I'm usually very sceptical when someone posts a theory about a character being this or that Old School character. Besides I want the Guardian to return if Romana does. Yes, you may have that one, Potential Future Official Who Writers on flist. Although I'm sure you've already thought of it.

- I don't think Amy's Choice is so much about which man she prefers romantically as it is about two different worlds that she feels she has to choose between. Nor do I think that the Doctor's 'competition' with Rory was based on romantic/sexual feelings for Amy. Sure, the Dream Lord kept making insinuations but he's supposed to represent the Doctor's Dark Side i.e. Ten the part that would exploit a human companion's feelings like that.* This was brought to you by Stop Talking About the Obvious, Dina department.

- Both Dream Worlds contained several hints that neither were real but what I found especially interesting were the type of very obvious clues that would occur in any of our dreams that we would find more than a little weird if we weren't, well, dreaming.

- I find it interesting that traveling with the Doctor is supposed to be the ''childish'' thing to do, what with saving whole worlds and expanding your horizons and stuff.

- I think the Doctor felt stiffled by the town because it gave him flashbacks to his youth on Gallifrey, somehow.

- For some reason, I think this could've been a story written for Four-Sarah-Harry anno 2010.

- I've entertained the thought of Amy suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. This does not make her a bad character. Again, the hints that Amy is off-kilter in a way that doesn't have anything to do with Cracks. I actually hope they don't discredit this but at the same time don't necessarily put a spot-light on it. It should just be a part of her.

The Squeeful:
- ''Amy, Rory, I cut your flowers!'' He was all Two-like, there!
- Amy/Rory for life, guys. Really, I'm so charmed (and kind of moved) by their whole relationship. Except there's no need to rush things, kids.
- Eleven running like a drunk Bernard Black.
- Dobby the House-Elf Toby Jones.
- The Doctor panicking at the idea of delivering a baby. I kind of refuse to believe he hasn't ever witnessed a birth, though.
- Amy's poncho-making.

The Eh:
- So was the ''What's his name?'' thing supposed to be hint that he's going to share all his secrets with River Song? Or that he wants to? I hope not.

* Not that he hasn't done that before, except not in a sexual way. Except he might have. Who knows.

[clocketpatch]

Here I am running amok and squeeing my way into a half dead episode thread again.

I didn't see that twist - I saw the both are dreams bit, but I did not see the Doctor. I saw the Toymaker and the Master and a Dalek robot but I did not see the Doctor, and the then him just sitting in the console at the end... brrrr

I agree that Amy's choice was between two ways of life and not a romantic one. Though, I think there was the implication there that her life with Rory and her life with the Doctor could not co-exist. However, at the end the was resolved with Rory telling Amy that he was willing to love her anywhere and Amy telling him that she would sacrifice her life with the Doctor for a life with him.

But she still likes travelling with the Doctor.

I don't think the "what's his name" was a River reference (or maybe it was and I'm just thick) but did Amy at any point get told that River knew his name? I figured it was just a cheap shot at the obvious, and it stung.

The image of the Doctor's subconscious with a half open shirt and a bling chain also... stung... ahhhhhhh brain bleach for that whole scene anyone?

But this whole episode was seven different levels of brilliant.

I was also concerned about Amy's lack of concern for her child JJ, especially after Rory's dying words were to look after it. Because she admitted at the end that she wasn't sure; she just didn't want to deal with her grief and thought suicide was a good enough plan b if the whole dream thing didn't pan out. Slightly squicky. Still, her choice, and since different people have wildly differing opinions on the unborn, justified, I guess, maybe.

I'm still kind of uneasy from it.

Wasn't there a reference to the cracks with the old people eye stalk things (can't think of or, probably. spell their names at the moment) they said they were refuges? Or did I mishear something?

Continuing to love Rory to bits and pieces. His cutting off of the pony tail was one of the most romantic and brave and ordinary and and just fantastic incidents in the whole of Who. I ship him with Amy. I ship it like whoooa. And I'm happy that the Doctor (if not his subconscious) appears to ship it too.

The Doctor! Like I said in the last post, Eleven gets angry when he's scared, and now I'm thinking that it's himself that he's angry at (well, I was thinking that all alone, but now it's been spelled out). Ten had his angst *pats him* but this episode takes it to a whole new level of creepy. There is just something beyond disturbing about the concept of the Doctor gone bad - part of what made Waters of Mars so chilling. The Dream Lord, the Doctor's Shadow, the Dark Subconscious Thoughts...

I love Eleven. I have been fully converted to the cult of the bow tie. I shall go over now and poke it with a stick.

And, final thoughts:

"We're in a spaceship that's bigger on the inside" ... "With a bow-tie wearing alien" WINWINWINWIN

and

this episode has just made children all over terrified of old people, winter, and the Doctor. Well done.

I want to watch the next two episodes SO BAD right now but it's the eleventh hour (literally) and I need to sleep so I can cheer my room mates across the podium tomorrow.

[jjpor]

*Yes, this was another really strong episode, I thought. I don't know what you'll think of the next two-parter - I think it's more of a Victory of the Daleks than a Flesh and Stone, if you see what I mean, but don't let me put you off it! ;D

But yeah, that scene with the Dream Lord doing his best impression of Seventies Pr0n Colin (well not quite, but it was nearly as terrifying as that) was creepy and disturbing on all sorts of different levels. As you say, the idea of the Doctor gone bad is a frightening one, or should be, as we're all too aware of some of the things he's capable of even when he's good...

And yeah, regarding the issue with Amy crashing the van and the baby, thinking on it I'm starting to think that doing something reckless without fully thinking through the consequences is probably quite in-character for Amy, judging from her behaviour in some of the other stories. It's part of her characterisation.

But yes, this is another one I need to watch again, maybe more than once, because it was full of stuff and I'm sure I missed a lot of it.*

[wanderlust]

*I liked this episode - it made me love Eleven even more, if that's at all possible. He has a charm about him (as do all the Doctors, really), but I think his youth is what makes me like him so much, as it's closer to my age than the others....

Er, I'll stop inner analyzing my love for Who.

Anyway, I didn't see the twist coming, either. I had noticed that the Dream Lord was dressed remarkably like the Doctor, but I had assumed that that was supposed to be mocking him, not neccessarily a dark version of himself, so to speak.

I will say, too, that when the line came that only one person hated the Doctor that much, I immediately thought of the Master.

I did wonder for a bit if since it was the Doctor's dreamworld, then did Amy really choose Rory or did the Doctor just dream that she did? Further thought on this makes me think, no, because when they were really awake Amy did have that little moment with Rory. Either way, I've never been one to ship the Doctor with anyone though a small, shameful, part of me likes Eleven/Amy.

I didn't entirely see a problem with Amy killing herself only because I was rather sure that that was not the real world and I pretty much just figured Amy was as sure as I was. I suppose, in hindsight, however, that if they had been as confused as they seemed to be about which world was which, her making that call, while pregnant and with the Doctor in tow, was probably not the best choice to make without thoroughly thinking it through.

I do agree with the notion that maybe Amy's choice wasn't neccessarily a romantic one, but a perception of one. I do think that maybe the Doctor has some concern that it could happen, seeing as how he has had more than one companion fall for him romantically and he seems to feel that it's wrong on some level. As a sidenote, I also have the idea that maybe the Doctor's romantic interests change with his carnation. I mean, everything else about him seems to change. Also, Nine didn't seem the least romantically interested in Rose, it was Ten. Eleven probably wouldn't be, either. His affections lean more towards Amy, as wrong as he may view it.

Anyway, I loved the scene when the Doctor shows up in the small town and they ask why he's come to visit, he says something like, oh, I couldn't leave my friends behind, and Amy just says, "You came here on accident, didn't you?"*

[jjpor]

*Heheh - yeah, I loved all the stuff where the Doctor was trying to be nice about Amy and Rory's village...and not doing a very good job of it... "What will they think of next?" ;D*

[clocketpatch]

Jun 8, 2010 21:34:50 GMT jjpor said:

*Heheh - yeah, I loved all the stuff where the Doctor was trying to be nice about Amy and Rory's village...and not doing a very good job of it... "What will they think of next?" ;D*

I was just re-watching this and his exact line is "so, what do you do around here to stave off the... you know... the self-harm"

O.o

Eleven has issues. I want to give him a hug.

Also, I think I know why I'm digging him more than Ten. I know the Doctor is supposed to be alien, and apparently Ten's big faux pas was being too human, and now people can't dig Eleven because he's apparently too alien and stiff, but I think I'm relating to Eleven a heck of a lot more. His writing is consistent. He's depressed and hiding it.

*hugs him again*

[Maggadin]

Clocket, I mean more along the lines that the Doctor subconciously wanting to share everything with River than about what Amy knows. Either way, I hope not.