Of Angels, Atraxi, Amelia and Amy...

[merrythemad]

Riiiiiight so first things first, my 1000 post!!!!!!!!!! I'm a Timelady!!!!!!!! Okay now, moving on. Much whitedness follows:

**So, by now, I'm sure you've all heard many theories regarding the possible double doctor, the possible paradox, the clues...or are they just errors? I have to admit I am totally into the idea that these are clues, starting waaaaaay back at TEH, when the shadow runs behind Amelia after the Doctor leaves, people have said this is the Doctor himself (would he be scary?) a future Doctor (maybe attempting to be sneaky not scary?) or Prisoner Zero (Aye but wasn't he a snake?). I'm going to have to rewatch the episode to be certain what I think it is, but I do remember seeing it, because I thought Amelia was about to get into trouble.


And we have the throw-away joke about the Doc always leaving the brakes on (holy heck, btw did this scene remind anyone else of Romana's first time flying the TARDIS? was that on purpose? Is River a timelady?), but IS it a throw away joke? IF later when the Doctor SANS jacket leaves Amy and shows up a moment later WITH jacket and in a much more rushed manner (I have to say though the differing manner could just have been his own discomfiture at leaving her surfacing) IF this is indeed a FUTURE eleven, then the Doc leaving the brakes on becomes much more significant doesn't it? It explains how eleven was able to sneak in (it does pay to remember all the clerics had their backs to him and Amy had her eyes closed) without having been heard.

We ALSO have Amy not remembering the daleks...hmm. What if AMELIA didn't make it out of that house and AMY is something else? Not Prisoner Zero (though I have heard it suggested she IS an escapee from Atraxi) but rather some other sort of lost alien drawn into this universe by the crack? It would explain why she had never seen the Daleks before, ya?

Is there anything I have missed? What does everyone else think? And what about River and the man she kills??**

[librarylover]

Random thoughts follow . . . .

** River flying the TARDIS was a bit reminiscent of Romana's introduction. As JJ pointed out, she was even wearing red shoes! I don't know if she is a Time Lady (maybe even THAT Time Lady), but I really have a hard time seeing her as bad. She was very concerned and caring toward Amy throughout both episodes, not to mention the whole sacrificing herself to save the Doctor back in the library. An evil person wouldn't do things like that. I actually have an EXTREMELY cracky theory about River, which is so far out into left field that I don't even feel comfortable writing it!

I went back and watched TEH again last night, because of the talk of the Doctor's shadow and that you could hear the TARDIS landing a few times during the episode, etc. I remembered the person walking through the kitchen from the first time I watched it, but at that time I assumed it was Prisoner Zero. On seeing it again I think it certainly could be the Doc. If not it was probably just PZ in disguise as one of the coma patients.

There is also the moment toward the end, when he leaves for his moon run and Amy closes her eyes and remembers sitting on her little suitcase waiting for him to return back when she was 7. It zooms in on Amelia, you hear the TARDIS landing noise and she looks up with a big smile - then it switches to grown Amy waking up to the sound of him landing. On first watch I assumed that was just a poetic license sort of thing to represent her memory, but now I wonder if that is when he says the thing to her that she desperately needs to remember as an adult.

I also re-watched TBB, to see if I could hear the extra TARDIS landings that people have claimed to hear in that one. I didn't, but the thing I noticed this time was that when they first land on the Starship UK you don't hear the TARDIS landing noise at all. They are in space looking at it on the monitor, Amy is talking about not interfering being like wildlife documentaries, and then she sees the Doctor on the monitor with the crying little girl. When did they land?

Now, as for Flesh and Stone, I re-watched part of it because I had totally missed the point about the sleeves and the jacket the first time. I was caught up in how sweet it was that he came back to try to comfort her a little more. I did notice on the first watch that when he came back to Amy his hands looked a bit scraped up, and I wasn't sure when or why that had happened. But you don't really get a good look at his hands elsewhere, so I couldn't swear that they weren't already like that. Before he leaves (sans jacket) he warns the clerics that if they let anything happen to Amy he will hold them all personally responsible - TWICE, which I thought was a bit odd the first time I watched it, but now I think it could be a clue.

I don't know what it is, but I really feel like there is some significance to the fact that we have never seen Amy's aunt, and that Amelia was left at home alone as a 7 year old, especially at night. It doesn't make sense that her aunt would do that. She would either be working, or out partying; either way people in a town that small would notice, and someone would probably report her to child protective services. **

[Maggadin]

LL, I have a few cracky theories about River, and all of them are fears. I'm really not into this Most Special Person in his life theme. As long as she doesn't turn out to be Susan's Gran...

[merrythemad]

As I saw no supposition thread elsewhere I'm going to continue to go on in this one, esp as thread head (global mod) LL approved, please don't flay me for misplacement (cuz I KNOW JJ is all about the flaying). that having been said, whitedness follows:

** Firstly, I just rewatched the last two episodes (ToA & FaS) payinf extra careful attention and conclusion one is it is NOT a mistake (which I have to admit I first feared desperately) I believe this because they chose to focus on the HANDS the hands which give the clue away, no bad cuffs, rolled up sleeves, AND jacket that has just gone missing (how much do we wanna bet that jacket shows up in an episode or two having fallen through the crack in the universe with the angel but having too much special whatchamacallit to have been destroyed by that action). I believe that IF it is a mistake it is the WORST kind of mistake.

Which (logically) leads us to what the heck is so important he rewrites his own timeline (or at least influences it). I think it is important to note that the CURRENT eleven seemed to know the future was there, look how many times he said "Time can be rewritten" almost like he was wearing those words as a balm against his own presence. Which means whatever FUTURE eleven said to Amy was WILDLY important and what did he say? That she needed to trust him, that if he always told her the truth she wouldn't have to trust him (so is he about to start lying to Amy on purpose to try and force that trust?), that she had to remember what he said to her when she was seven ("you're scottish, fry something" "trust me, I'm the Doctor". "I'm the Doctor, I'm worse than everybody's aunt" and "Do exactly as I sat, don't ask stupid questions and don't wander off") bear in mind WHAT he said isn't so important to him as that she REMEMBER what he said...

Which brings us to Amy...IF that is her real name...I'm a bit saddened by all this she is evil speculation...while I reckon she COULD be an escapee; I find it doubtful as River is ALSO being kept in Atraxi as was Prisoner Zero, you'd think ONE of those sources would have ratted out an imposter...but could she be something else entirely, perhaps not even aware that she is something else? Perhaps, whatever species she is is highly empathic and as they have made a large to middling deal regarding children crying, suppose the empathic creature responded to the child's crying...BUT what Aunt leaves a seven year old all alone at night? I'd say the Aunt was dead already and Amy replaced except we have seen the Aunt later...but I DO think the difference between AMY and AMELIA will end up mattering very much, and as for that bit about the duck pond...Amy POND Duck POND, when is a duck pond not a duck pond...

Which brings us (as many of you KNEW it had to) to River. FIRSTLY, I need to state I think many people are forgetting that WHATEVER is revealed now, it changes NOTHING about the library, as River said to Eleven "You don't know who I am yet", A River that has NOT yet been to the library, a River who when she DOES get to the library, AFTER the Doctor knows who she is, she feels safe enough in the Doctor's presence (one clearly AFTER both Ten and the current Eleven) to call him to her aid with a hug and kiss. Remember what a HUGE deal Donna made regarding that? Secondly, her having killed the Doctor...I think it IS a read herring, but not the way we expect, Moffat is toying with the River-haters, I think, and we shall find that she DOES kill the Doctor, but it was all part of their plan and THAT is why she can't tell him...yet, spoilers. I do have more to say, but I hope like heck I have given you lot enough to start a really rollicking debate...**

[pitry]

Hmm... I'll be very surprised if Amy is NOT Amelia, but I'm all up for the possibility she's a sort of a possible-Amelia: not the Amelia the Doctor was supposed to travel with, but a sort of AU Amelia that was created because of whatever messes up in time that were created. If that makes sense...

[jjpor]

Welcome back to the fold, Merry!

[creepy chanting]One of us...one of us...one of us...one of us...[/creepy chanting]

*All good speculations. I need to make time to go back and watch some of the earlier eps and look for all of these clues people say they have spotted, like the shadows and the TARDIS noises. Except that I'm worried I might freak myself out a bit...I am a bit of a wuss when it comes to that sort of "spooky" stuff. ;D

My working theory at the moment (and be prepared for it to turn out to be totally untrue, just like my theory last week about hallucinogenic lipstick) is that the whole universe that S5 is taking place in is some sort of alternate or fake universe, a version of history that shouldn't have happened, possibly caused by something Ten did. And the "future" Doctor with the rolled-up sleeves is actually the "real" Doctor trying to put it right, whereas the Doctor we're seeing most of the time is a "fake" Doctor. And the only way to put it right is somehow to sacrifice the "fake" Doctor, the way the Angels wanted him to jump into the crack in last week's ep. And this is what River was doing when she killed a "good man"... So in S6 the "real" Doctor and "real" Amy will go on to have adventures as if nothing has happened, even though they are in fact different characters to the (now deceased) ones we spent most of S5 watching.

Yes, this theory is complete crack, I know, but seeing as any theory I come out with at this point is almost certain to be wrong, I thought I should go for one that is as far-out as possible. ;D*

[merrythemad]

Okay, I'll add more to this after I watch tonite's episode, however I just wanted to say **Watch for Rory to give the Doctor his watch, as the watches the two Doctor's had on were different and the noncurrent Doctor was wearing a watch with a brown band, much like Rory's watch**

[jjpor]

I was watching out for it, Merry, but...no, unfortunately not...

[merrythemad]

I KNOW!!!!!!! Keep waiting though, Rory isn't back home just yet!!** It may be closer to the finale so we have a chance to forget the oddly switching watches! Also is there a crack in the keyhole of the TARDIS? If this is true how would this affect their timetravel? remember last week the last thing we saw was a crack in the keyhole and this week a dream sequence, so we really have NO idea how this could affect things a hole in the universe inside a time machine....so many possibilities, oooh a plot bunny!**

[jjpor]

*I do wonder whether the whole Dream Lord thing could turn out to be linked to the cracks, if only because mention of the cracks in this last episode was kind of conspicuous by its absence, I thought. You know, like the whole Elevenverse turns out to be a massive dream orchestrated by the Valeyard or something...or something...

Yep. The Moff's just got me making up daft conspiracy theories by this point, none of which are likely to be right... ;D*

[merrythemad]

Here is a link to a pretty good article detailing what we've been discussing here and a few things we haven't
io9.com/5539815/whats-really-going-on-this-year-on-doctor-who?skyline=true&s=i

what say you mates?

[jjpor]

I say I'm going to have to rewatch the whole season again - very, very carefully...

[librarylover]

** I think the part of the article about the Moon and the Earth at the start of TEH was interesting. I watched it again, and I agree that the axial tilt seems to be wrong, but I also think it is a huge stretch to think that the production team would believe that a significant number of watchers would pick up on that in a matter of seconds. My vote is either production error, or they used the Peter's Projection Map version of the world to freak us out. (Fans of the West Wing might remember a segment on this on Big Block of Cheese Day in season 2.) ;D

Provocative question, related to a cracky theory: Could the moon be the Doctor Moon? **

[merrythemad]

**LL are you part of the The Silence somehow repressents or is caused by River crowd? is this your cracky theory?**

[jjpor]

*Silence as in "...in the Library"?? Hmm...

The whole Amyverse is actually a giant computer simulation like the one River and co ended up "saved" in??



To be honest, I never even noticed the earth/moon thing and think it's a bit of a stretch. All telly sf portrays objects in space being far too close together, doesn't it?*

[johne]

May 19, 2010 21:13:56 GMT jjpor said:

*To be honest, I never even noticed the earth/moon thing and think it's a bit of a stretch. All telly sf portrays objects in space being far too close together, doesn't it?*

]Not just telly SF. Webcasts get it too: the animation in Death comes to Time seems to think that the Moon is about five seconds from Earth by space shuttle. Or that space shuttles have light-speed drives.

By the way, if that theory about the Moon proves to be true, the wacky behaviour of the Earth-Moon system in the opening credits of the first season of Star Trek: TNG must have startling implications for the series as a whole...[

[librarylover]

May 19, 2010 21:13:56 GMT jjpor said:

*Silence as in "...in the Library"?? Hmm...

The whole Amyverse is actually a giant computer simulation like the one River and co ended up "saved" in??

*

<Rambling theory>
** Related to the library, but not necessarily a simulation and not River's fault. What if the Doctor caused the crack by trying to re-write time to save River? Not Eleven, but TEN when he was having his little nutty after WoM. In TEOT he says to Wilf that he did some things (plural) that went wrong. What if one was trying to save River, and failing. He might not have realized that it caused the crack at that time, or maybe the crack started then but really became a danger when Gallifrey returned and had to be sent back into the time lock. Could "the silence will fall" mean that no matter how hard he tries, what happened at the library can't be changed? Could Eleven have tried again after he left Amelia, and somehow have gotten stuck in the computer?

Consider the things that have re-surfaced from prior episodes, and/or have been repeated multiple times this season:
- The Doctor getting handcuffed to something, causing him to be unable to save a companion from danger.
- Everything revolving around a secret about a little girl, like CAL. Even though Amy is a young adult they keep referring to her being a child inside, or running away from growing up.
- Multiple mentions of his "relationship" with Queen Elizabeth I, which allegedly happened between WoM and TEOT.
- In Victory of the Daleks, they beat the Doctor. He stopped a little bit of their plan, but basically they got what they cared about most. The Doctor has never really been beaten by the Daleks before. Could this be something he has nightmares about?
- The Weeping Angels using a dead human to speak through, like the Vashta Nerada did in the library.
- Multiple mentions of the Pandorica opening. When he and River talked about this at the end of Flesh and Stone he said the Pandorica is a fairy tale, and River replied "Aren't we all", implying something or someone isn't real.
- The duck pond - I thought it was just a joke set-up for when he texts her the message to duck (Duck, Pond . . . get it?) later in TEH, but then he mentions it again in FAS, and seems to think it's significant. Could the empty duck pond be a message he somehow sent to himself, like the message to duck he left for Sally Sparrow under the wallpaper?
- When the second Doctor comes back in FAS and tells Amy that she has to remember, could that be a reference to how people in the simulated world in the library's computer kept forgetting what was real?
- Leadworth, and Upper Leadworth definitely have a fairy tale quality, like the world in the library's computer. Was it just me, or did Amy and Rory's house look just like the house Amy grew up in? Except it was in a different village. What if there's only one house, like there was only 1 set of children?
- Could the reason he seemed so pleased at the end of FAS when he said "Time can be re-written" be because he has figured out a way to save River?
- Could being responsible for the demise of another species in VOV just be the Doctor's nightmare?
- Could Amy's Choice be a clue that all of this is unreal?

I'm not completely sure what I'm suggesting, because it's only half baked in my head. It just feels like a lot of references are pointing toward things or events related to the library, even before River returned. In the first few episodes I thought that the references to previous episodes were just to help ease the audience through the transition to a new version of the Doctor with some continuity. Could it be Moff just recycling a lot of his favorite ideas that he has contributed to DW? Maybe, but it feels like it is too deliberate and pervasive to be coincidence, plus a few things aren't from episodes he wrote. I look forward to watching it unfold, probably in a way completely unlike anything I have been thinking. As long as Amy will still be the companion, and the Doctor doesn't end up in the shower with it all turning out to have been a post-regenerative dream, I doubt I'll be disappointed. (Hmm, you're probably all too young to get that Dallas joke. See Bobby Ewing died, was dead during the next season, then in the final episode of the season his wife Pam woke up from a nightmare and found him very much alive and taking a shower. The entire season was just her nightmare. It is one of the biggest jump the shark moments in U.S. television history, possibly even bigger than the original jump the shark moment.) ** </Rambling theory>

[Maggadin]

Oh, LL, don't make me fear that River isn't going to die after all.

[merrythemad]

First, I GOT the Dallas joke, I dunno if I ought to be pleased by that though...and secondly, well Star Trek TNG DOES have a surprising none of this was real twist so perhaps the moon WAS an indication, lol. Now holy heck what a lot to respond to and YAY the thread is being used *dances*. KK, whitedness follows. ** I agree the Duck Pond is significant, LL, a message is a neat idea, especially as we think a future Doctor DID appear between his two visits, but I was thinking it had more to do with Amy when is a Pond not a Pond...I think it means she ISN'T who we think but perhaps she thinks is too.

I don't think it's all related to the Library but will agree that somehow River seems significant. (Sideba:r Maggie, even if she dies we don't have to stop seeing we've never met her in chronological order before why start now?) ACK lost train of thought as I walked away midpost, I will reread later (when it isn't so nice and finish then)**

[Maggadin]

Don't crush my hopes, Merry! ;D