kirkg
Auton Daisy
"Hello, Sweetie!"
Posts: 442
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Post by kirkg on Sept 12, 2011 3:26:57 GMT
OK, I'm sure I'm going to get jumped for opening this wound again, but the recent 10th anniversary observation of the Sept. 11th attacks in the US has me thinking aloud about this.
Why doesn't the Doctor go back and prevent the huge loss of life by stopping 9-11 from happening?
(This has also come up time and time again in connection with Superman...why didn't he help us win WWII sooner? Why didn't he just take out Hitler? For that matter, the doctor has a time machine, and Melody has a gun... why not go kill hitler?)
Aqua tells me that this fundemental point has been addressed in the series before...though I don't know where... but I think I'd like to ask the question again.
Mags also pointed out, why not stop at 911? Why not stop the Black Plague, the Xmas tsunami, the atom bombing o Japan...the list could go on and on...and why stop at Earth history? Why not "correct" the entire universe.
Hmmmm?
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Post by clocketpatch on Sept 12, 2011 5:26:19 GMT
I think that, were time travel a real thing, this would be most people's first impulse. For better or for worse. One reason the Doctor cannot do these things within the show is fairly straightforward: they actually happened. It's a TV show and it exists in its own alternate reality, but even so, to have the Doctor go back and stop an event which clearly happened and was never stopped in real life could be seen as not entirely appropriate (unless the story were about the consequences of this action and it got put back into place at the end. It's still a thin line.) This is especially true with recent history where people were, and continue to be, affected by the fall-out. For example, Voyage of the Damned received complaints and letters to change the plot from one of the last Titanic survivors who did not believe that the episode was respectful to the memory of a very real tragedy; that it was trivialized by being turned into a plot point. Overall, it's easier to use events from the far past, things that haven't happened yet, and problems on alien worlds. That doesn't mean that current problems can't be alluded to or mentioned. There were many references to "Weapons of Mass Destruction" hidden in Nine's series. Terry Nation wrote many stories addressing the fascism and racism which spread during WWII. There are other stories about environmental disaster, about the "Red Menace", about real wars with aliens standing in for real countries because that way they can be defeated without sparking the above mentioned PR disaster. Within the actual context of the show there have been several episodes which gave explanation for why the Doctor can and cannot change history. There are two separate reasons in-universe why the Doctor cannot interfere (too much) with time: 1. Time Fights BackSome small things can be changed, but other events are fixed points which must not be altered. These things must always happen. Also, going back on your own timeline is a big no no. In Father's Day Rose goes back in time and saves the life of her father... and causes history to unravel in the process. In Fires of Pompeii the Doctor tells Donna that he cannot stop the eruption of Mount Vesuvius because it is a fixed point. Before the end of the episode he must trigger the eruption himself to prevent a greater tragedy. In Waters of Mars the Doctor attempts to change a fixed point in history, very nearly breaking time in the process - and he still fails, because the person he is trying to save recognizes that what he is doing is wrong. 2. Moral ReasonsGenesis of the Daleks has maybe the most famous scene relating to this. I couldn't find the scene itself, but there's a bit of it in this trailer: www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzdmyTSeh54&feature=related The jest of it is that the Doctor doesn't have the right to change history to that degree even if he does have the power. It prevents something horrible, but maybe that something horrible will ultimately cause a greater good. There's another example in the last episode of The Key to Time arc. The Doctor is given an object which gives him ultimate power over every action in the universe - and he refuses to use it since doing so would eliminate free will. -- The rules about it are rather wibbly, obviously, and bend according to whatever the plot of the week is and what the writer wants to do. Time has been rewritten a lot lately, bent into loops and paradoxes, but unless the Doctor goes utterly bonkers again (which I don't doubt he may) I don't think we'll see that kind of re-writing of the time lines going on. For one thing, the TARDIS would be furious and the Doctor knows better than to upset the Missus (usually) |
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Post by Maggadin on Sept 12, 2011 18:11:56 GMT
All of what Clocket said. There was also One's admonishment to Barbara in The Aztecs, when she wanted to stop the human sacrifices.
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kirkg
Auton Daisy
"Hello, Sweetie!"
Posts: 442
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Post by kirkg on Sept 12, 2011 20:50:42 GMT
All of what Clocket said. There was also One's admonishment to Barbara in The Aztecs, when she wanted to stop the human sacrifices. And what was One's admonishment to Barbara for those of us who haven't watched it and don't know where to look for it? |
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kirkg
Auton Daisy
"Hello, Sweetie!"
Posts: 442
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Post by kirkg on Sept 12, 2011 20:55:17 GMT
Oh, I've just gone to watch the FOUR trailer on the Genesis of the Daleks.
Cross the wires, Doctor...DO IT. please eliminate all those awful episodes where they just keep coming back, again, and again, and again, and scream "Exterminate" in garbled voices...PLEASE do it... if only to spare future generations...
PS: I wanna go watch that Titanic episode now... having just found a nice cross-over to one of my other pet hobby topics...Titanic.... (Aqua, do you have it?)
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Post by aquabluejay on Sept 12, 2011 23:02:27 GMT
You mean 'Voyage of the Damned'?
I have it, but I warn you, it's one of the I think it's the Christmas special from right before season four, you'd be taking things out of order, and that's cheating!
Oh, I've just remembered that Wilf makes a foreshadowing appearance in there, I love Wilf! ^^
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Post by clocketpatch on Sept 13, 2011 1:06:11 GMT
I wouldn't advise it Kirk; it's kind of a terrible episode (IMHO, I do know at least one person who has it as their all time favourite so you might enjoy it, but it just makes me wince) One's admonishment to Barbara was: "You can't rewrite history - not one line!" The thing with Four and the two wires is one of the biggest scenes of the entire series. Sarah-Jane and Four have an argument over what is to be done and both raise good points. I was actually reading an interesting (and well written!) fic on this whole saving lives theme the other day on the spoon: www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=5942 it's Seven and Ace if you're interested. |
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Post by aquabluejay on Sept 13, 2011 2:20:45 GMT
I actually love voyage of the damned... It has hilarious lines about what aliens think earth holidays are about, and Wilf almost sort of breaks the fourth wall by acknowledging the reoccurring Christmas mayhem! XD
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kirkg
Auton Daisy
"Hello, Sweetie!"
Posts: 442
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Post by kirkg on Sept 13, 2011 23:02:05 GMT
WILF?
I'm afraid I won't go looking for it out of order...
I'm under strict orders from General Aqua to watch the rest of Ten in order, and to HURRY UP...she says there are some wonderous things ahead... but I can barely figure out how to playback the most recent ELEVEN episodes after the fact without her help!
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Post by aquabluejay on Sept 14, 2011 0:03:14 GMT
Tell you what. I'll add them to the actual Miro que, and If we leave the computer on, I think they should stay on there. Because they're stored on an external device, it'll wipe them from Miro's memory when it shuts down. If I actually transfer them onto the downstairs computer, they'll stay put... Either way, I'll que up the next couple, so all you'll have to do is open Miro if it's not already open.
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Post by jjpor on Sept 14, 2011 20:56:11 GMT
I don't think there's anything I can add to Clocket's excellent summary above or to Maggadin's excellent summary in the cbox the other night, that wouldn't just count as me pontificating pointlessly. But yes. What they said. Although (says he, contradicting himself already), I suppose another reason why you wouldn't want to go into the history-altering game is the sheer unpredictability of what your actions might do a year, or ten years, or a hundred years, down the line. You know, you prevent World War Two but inadvertantly set the stage for World Wars Two-b, Three, Four and FIve. That whole thing about a butterfly flapping its wings in China and causing a hurricane in Florida. The Ray Bradbury short story "A Sound of Thunder" may be the most famous sf treatment of this idea. Cross the wires, Doctor...DO IT. please eliminate all those awful episodes where they just keep coming back, again, and again, and again, and scream "Exterminate" in garbled voices...PLEASE do it... if only to spare future generations... Resurrection of the Daleks, I give you, but erasing Remembrance...?!?!  And slightly missing the point of the scene, perhaps. And what was One's admonishment to Barbara for those of us who haven't watched it and don't know where to look for it? And, don't want to sound like I'm having a go, but if you want to debate the sort of fundamental tenets of Doctor Who as a show, it kind of behoves you to familiarise yourself with some of its more famous moments over the years.  |
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Post by clocketpatch on Sept 15, 2011 0:15:25 GMT
The Ray Bradbury short story "A Sound of Thunder" may be the most famous sf treatment of this idea. Sounds interesting. Any ideas how I might get a hold of it? (I always find looking up individual short stories annoying because you have the story name but what you really need is the anthology name ) And, don't want to sound like I'm having a go, but if you want to debate the sort of fundamental tenets of Doctor Who as a show, it kind of behoves you to familiarise yourself with some of its more famous moments over the years. It helps, but then again, the only way you learn anything is by jumping in with both feet and not being afraid to ask questions when you get confused. ;D (I didn't know that was a famous moment in the show for my first several years in fandom - even after watching the episode in question. I though it was an awesome moment, but I didn't know it was fannishly significant. It's amazing the moments that pass you by until you are immersed in the culture; and likewise, the moments which the culture picks up on to share) |
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Post by jjpor on Sept 15, 2011 18:44:07 GMT
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kirkg
Auton Daisy
"Hello, Sweetie!"
Posts: 442
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Post by kirkg on Sept 17, 2011 0:32:16 GMT
The funny thing is that I came to know the story and concept in a slightly different form. Back in 1966 or so, Marvel comics put out a new reprint comic of monster/horror anthology called "Fantasy Masterpieces" for about 12 cents. Among the various stories culled from earlier "Monster books" was a Steve Ditko short 4 or 5 page featurette called "Those Who Change".
Now, I picked up my copy as a coverless comic book at a school white elephant sale, and read it time and time again. I finally caught on that these were short stories that had been illustrated for comics, and not all one story nor were they anything more than simple morality plays.
"Those Who Change" was about a scientist who had invented the ability to send a camera back in time to witness history. He and his assistant launch the probe through time back to the dawn of time, where it lands next to the primordial sea. As an anphibian crawls out of the sea and rears on it's hind legs for the first time, walking upright, it is smacked dead by the arrival of the probe, streaking down from the heavens. The creature falls back into the sea.
In modern day, the scientist and his assistant are very frustrated to see that the probe camera is not working. It has been damaged by some collision. It is a failure.
"Oh well, says the scientist in the white lab coat, as the siloulette turns away from the tv consol and into the light for the final panel. "What could it matter?" he says, as the reader sees that instead of being human beings, the two scientists are now lizard type creatures.
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