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Post by aquabluejay on Jun 14, 2011 5:14:57 GMT
He is however more a less responsible for the creation of 'New Who' I should think, so there's that...
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Post by Maggadin on Jun 14, 2011 10:32:10 GMT
Well, no, that's RTD (and I'm not an RTD-fan, either). Or at least, he was the first New Who producer. Either way, I don't feel like admiring either of them.
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Post by jjpor on Jun 14, 2011 21:03:13 GMT
Yes, but unlike Roddenberry, Abrams and Carter, Moffat or RTD did not actually create Doctor Who (although the way people go on about them you could easily be fooled), so it's less ''cult of the creator'' than cult-of-current-show-runner. Well, yes, but I think ultimately it's the same fan-impulse or whatever in both cases. But yes, arguably even more misguided in the case of Who than in the case of Trek etc (and pretty misguided there, too - considering that despite Roddenberry's sacred cow status, much of the good creative work in original series Trek was the work of other hands, including an extremely eclectic writing staff that included more than a couple of fully-paid-up "name" science fiction authors).
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Post by Maggadin on Jun 14, 2011 21:33:04 GMT
Well, I've never really watched Star Trek, so I wouldn't be able to tell you. But my point still stands: they didn't invent a brand new show; they carried on the work. Nothing wrong with that, of course.
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kirkg
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Post by kirkg on Jun 15, 2011 0:41:53 GMT
Well, no, that's RTD (and I'm not an RTD-fan, either). Or at least, he was the first New Who producer. Yeah, I think that may be more true, Mags.... RTD seems to have been more the creative force for Season One and Two...
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kirkg
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Post by kirkg on Jun 15, 2011 0:45:26 GMT
OK, rather than start a new thread, which I may do so anyway, I'll post this question here.
A little bird told me that there used to be a PDF file of "Continuity Error" available in fandom/internet somewhere.
How many of you are familiar with this, and do you know where it currently resides?
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Post by Maggadin on Jun 16, 2011 14:09:36 GMT
And three and four... Moffat didn't become show-runner until S5/31.
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kirkg
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Post by kirkg on Jun 17, 2011 17:24:52 GMT
Just saw "The Curse of Fatal Death" by Steve Moffat, and loved it for what it is. Very clever, very cute, nice tribute to old school Dr. Who.
Thanks for recommending it, and it was worth the $10 I shelled otu to enjoy it! Thanks again. You all should watch it.
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leamichelle
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Post by leamichelle on Jun 18, 2011 21:38:19 GMT
I've seen it, kirkg - and while it's not my cuppa, I'm glad you found it worth your money. One DW parody I can recommend, though, is the one from Friday Night Project. David Tennant appears in drag, and I shall say no more on it ... xD (It's easy to find on YouTube!) Anyway, I think there are many Moffat fans and many who aren't too pleased with him. I fall somewhere in the middle, generally enjoying the twists and turns as they come but am not so smitten that I wouldn't give Mr Moffat a piece of my mind for some things (RTD as well). Then again, it's impossible to please everyone in fandom. How many times has Who almost died, again? ;D
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Post by aquabluejay on Jun 19, 2011 3:52:40 GMT
I LOVE that sketch! XD It's hilarious! I went back and actually watched that ep of the Friday night project, and the whole thing was pretty funny, especially when that one audience member asks if she can ruffle his hair! ^^
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kirkg
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Post by kirkg on Jun 19, 2011 17:33:41 GMT
I've seen it, kirkg - and while it's not my cuppa, I'm glad you found it worth your money. One DW parody I can recommend, though, is the one from Friday Night Project. David Tennant appears in drag, and I shall say no more on it ... xD (It's easy to find on YouTube!) Anyway, I think there are many Moffat fans and many who aren't too pleased with him. I fall somewhere in the middle, generally enjoying the twists and turns as they come but am not so smitten that I wouldn't give Mr Moffat a piece of my mind for some things (RTD as well). Then again, it's impossible to please everyone in fandom. How many times has Who almost died, again? ;D Well, I wouldn't say it's a brilliant, lasting achievement, but for what it tries to do and WHEN it was done, I think it was an admirable tribute/parody that lasts plenty long enough to do the job. A full show would have just been too much. Now, when it comes to better, I'd say "Space" and "Time" were much more clever and had better execution...and should survive the test of time for more years, cause they are fresh, and don't rely on other original source material for their parody, IMHO. I like the funny sketches. They form just enough comic relief to offset the heavy, longer forms. I don't really think Moffat is God.... I just went there to tease a few anti-Moffat fans. I enjoy the twists as they come along, and I think the whole 9-10-11 run has lifted the bar for the entire series. Brought it up to speed, up to date. And now I'm enjoying them with my family on Father's Day.
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Post by Maggadin on Jun 19, 2011 18:18:50 GMT
I'm curious about what people mean when they say ''twists and turns'' because I've never really noticed any. Not being obnoxious, btw, I'm genuinely curious and would like some examples. ;D
Also, I have to disagree that the new series is so much better than the old one...
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kirkg
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Post by kirkg on Jun 20, 2011 3:08:46 GMT
Big reveals... Keeping the audience in the dark... Surprising us by revealing that a particular character wasn't really there... or that that person was actually somebody else.
Example: The Doctor holding Amy's hand in the forest in Flesh and Stone (Weeping Angels) turns out to not be him from the current timeline, but popped back in.
Example: "We switched shoes. I'm the real Doctor, not him."
Example: "Alight kids, this is where it gets really confusing..." (Amy stepping out of the Pandorica, instead of the Doctor in the beginning of the Big Bang.)
Example: Amy charging into the tardis moments after the doctor proclaims that no one will ever enter or leave this room again.
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Post by Maggadin on Jun 20, 2011 11:49:10 GMT
Oh, okay. I haven't actually seen those episodes. I was just going by the ones I have seen, where there really weren't any ''twists and turns'' to speak of.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jun 20, 2011 12:07:17 GMT
I think his biggest twist was the true identity of Nancy in The Doctor Dances. That still gives me chills. The opening of The Big Bang also was very VERY unexpected. And the ending of the Almost People... well... I was expecting someone to be not really there, my money would've been on virtually anyone else.
The forest scene in the Pandorica Opens, was, well... I'm not sure twisty is the right would for it since the whole of fandom figured that one out months before the big reveal. Though, to be honest, I think we were supposed to. Giveaways to make the audience feel clever are a good way to keep said audience watching.
I don't, however, think that keeping the audience completely in the dark is the best way to go about making a twist. I far prefer Chekhov's Gun. The audience needs to have at least one clue, one inkling, one chance to discover the plot for themselves. That's what made the reveal with Nancy and the plotline with the cracks so engaging -
You could almost guess the outcome if you watched the clues.
If you just make stuff up left, right and centre, well, that's not nearly so much fun is it?
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Post by Maggadin on Jun 20, 2011 12:22:43 GMT
TEC/TDD are my favourite Moffat episodes (yes, I've got favourites, in spite of it all). I've never had a OH MY GOD THAT WAS THE MOST BRILLIANT THING I'VE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE reaction to any of his twists, though.
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Post by jjpor on Jun 20, 2011 18:48:15 GMT
I think The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances was very, very good. I don't give the Nine era enough praise, really, because I generally do think very highly of it. I like it much better than most of Ten's tenure if I stop to think about it. But it's strange - it's something that's grown on me over time. I don't think I was too impressed with NuWho at all for maybe the first year or two, but yes, Nine - a grower. It just goes to show how your perception of things can change over time and repeated viewings. I still think Blink is amazing, though - I really do. I think it fully deserves every bit of ridiculous praise it got on first airing and that the sort of fan backlash that took place a bit later was dead wrong, but you know, that's just my opinion. I don't think Blink was particularly "twisty" or "suprising", though, but it was clever in other ways, and just generally classy all round. I think a big part of it is that Carey Mulligan was a ridiculously charismatic guest star who more than made up for the Doctor being more or less absent for a week - you can see why she's gone on to bigger and better things. Plus, it was just different. The thing I always compare it to in my head is the X-Files episode "Jose Chung's From Outer Space", which is something similar in that it just steps outside of the box for a single episode and shows us the show and its characters from a different and interesting angle. It's not something you could or should do every single week, but once in a while it works very well. Thinking on S6/32(a) or whatever we're calling it, I think Clocket makes a good point. There's a difference between an "earned" plot-twist where the clues are there, but hard to spot, but when the twist is revealed you have a sort of "OMG" moment and are generally exhilarated by it...and an "unearned" twist that is literally pulled out of nowhere. I think it's still too early to say what direction the ultimate story arc is going in, but I think that Moffat run the risk of (and already has, for some people), losing the audience around a bend somewhere by being so reluctant to reveal any answers yet. You know, he's asking the viewers to take an awful lot on trust, asking them to sit through a lot of story that doesn't make a whole lot of immediate sense on the promise that it will all come together at some future point. And I understand perfectly that a lot of people are a bit dubious about giving him that sort of trust. You know me; I'm a pretty big fan of Eleven and his era so far, but even I'm starting to think a few answers and a bit less wilful obscurity would be a good thing (like, in the so-called mid-season finale which wasn't really any kind of finale at all, more like a pause). You know, cause the longer it goes on, the more expectations build, the more people give up on the arc altogether, and you're potentially left with a situation where you've alienated half the audience, and the rest are underwhelmed by the big payoff, so nobody's happy. Like I was saying on DW Live the other night (in between making off-colour quips about the possibility of Four/Davros shippiness ), I really did think at the time, and have yet to be convinced otherwise, that by the point we got to The End of Time it was more than time for a change. RTD and Ten really had outstayed their welcome by at least a year, imho, and I wanted something different. Anything different. And I think that is a large part of why I've been enjoying S5 and (most of) S6.1. Plus Matt Smith is an absolute living legend (one thing NuWho has been consistently lucky in since 2005 is the quality of its lead actors), and the rest of the cast haven't been slouches either. However, I think by the time the end of this new season we are apparently getting rolls around in 2012 or 2013, assuming Moffat sticks to the same path he is now, it will again be time for a change. I think this is only natural and good and proper, and hopefully, assuming the show continues for at least one more Doctor after Eleven, we will get something different that is still recognisably Who and perhaps a bit less divisive than both of the preceding NuWho production regimes have proven. As it is, I'm still sticking with Moffat, but I think it's got to the point where he has to start paying off some of his narrative I.O.Us, sooner rather than later.
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Post by Maggadin on Jun 20, 2011 19:41:45 GMT
What bothers me is that fandom has turned whether or not you like Moffat into a question of how smart you are. I.e. anybody who doesn't profess to the idea that he's an absolute genius and that Doctor Who has never ever been as good as it is now, must be mentally deficient or intellectually unsophisticated. So, clearly, I just ought to accept that I'm too stupid to understand The Mind of a Genius. However, I was able to guess almost from the start how S5 was going to conclude (I pretty much predicted the whole plot of TBB), so that must mean that it can't possibly have been as clever as people say.
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kirkg
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Post by kirkg on Jun 20, 2011 22:53:47 GMT
I don't know whether to be pleased or dismayed that my little thread has sparked such controversy and disucssion (Still trying to resist JJpor's mind control techniques.... Failing...)
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Post by johne on Jun 20, 2011 22:59:46 GMT
What bothers me is that fandom has turned whether or not you like Moffat into a question of how smart you are. I.e. anybody who doesn't profess to the idea that he's an absolute genius and that Doctor Who has never ever been as good as it is now, must be mentally deficient or intellectually unsophisticated. I've seen reviews that take the opposite tack: that you're mentally deficient or intellectually unsophisticated if you like the show as it is now, because it means you've been fooled by Moffat's bag of threadbare plot devices and tawdry tricks. ;D Perhaps we can just sit back and leave the two sides to repeating "I am con siderably cleverer than yeow" endlessly to each other. The last time fandom was this riven, I think it was due to Rose versus Martha, but at least then there was an obvious compromise: Ship Rose/Martha! I'm not sure there is one this time.
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