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Post by jjpor on Oct 12, 2010 21:03:31 GMT
No, no not really... ;D But something we were discussing only recently has been made official: www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2010/oct/12/doctor-who-immortal-reveals-bbcWhovian Simon (and what a unique given name he has ;D) needs to take a valium, I think, but nothing compared to that bloke in the comments going by the handle "Doctor Whom" - gotta love fans like that! ;D Still, it's a weight off my mind and I actually think addressing the issue like this is kind of classy and cool and very Doctor Who, rather than making it a big plot point. I'm betting it was, as many fanfic writers have suggested, some sort of Time War-related manpower-maximising measure on the part of the Time Lords. Yes...
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Post by Maggadin on Oct 12, 2010 21:31:25 GMT
Well, Two did say they could live ''forever, barring accidents'', so...
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Post by johne on Oct 12, 2010 21:38:34 GMT
It strikes me that if RTD's so exercised by the regeneration limit that he goes to the trouble of trying to retcon it away in an unrelated story, he's just as deserving of criticism as the likes of Whovian Simon.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 13, 2010 18:57:33 GMT
Well, Two did say they could live ''forever, barring accidents'', so... Well, exactly... On the other hand, I never get tired of criticising RTD... Personally, I think the best approach is the one that old Who itself would have taken, pre-John Nathan-Turner and just never, ever mention the thirteen-regeneration thing ever again. But obviously that would in itself provoke criticisms from fandom, so this seems like an attempt to head that all off in as offhanded a manner as possible. Presumably, Moffat and the new management would have to okay him doing this anyway... I suppose there's a counterargument that it could be addressed as a plot-point in the main show, and might make a pretty good story, but yeah I do sort of agree that it was never really relevant anyway, whatever some fans might think.
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Post by reversethepolarity on Oct 14, 2010 15:25:57 GMT
I am actually very disappointed over this turn of events. I find it lacking in inspiration or ingenuity. The 12 regenerations fact is well established and has been for while. It's something fans have discussed for decades and something we have all been looking forward to, really just to see how to over come. I felt that this cap on regenerations gave the show a lot of potential for the upcoming Doctors and even 11. Coming close to his last body, the Doctor would be less reckless and by his 13th body I would have expected him to be much more careful and less willing to run head-long in to danger or risk his life, not just for himself but because the universe needs him. He would have had to come to terms with his own mortality and I would have loved to watch that unfold. It would have been a more complex Doctor and it just had so much now-untapped potential. Sure, he would have found away around this death eventually (probably) but he wouldn't know that.
All in all, I'm very disappointed and not at all surprised, really, since it came from RTD. Still, all this really does for me is make me finally accept that SJA is, in fact, not canon. Which isn't so bad, really, because I can finally believe that Sarah Jane ran off with Harry and lived happily ever after. That's how I choose to look at all this anyway. I'll just put SJA firmly in the realm of Unbound Stories and be done with it.
((For those of you who don't know, Unbound is a series of 'What If' audios about Alternate Universe done by, of course, Big Finish.))
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Post by jjpor on Oct 14, 2010 20:47:36 GMT
I'm with you on the Sarah/Harry thing... ;D I think it's a difficult balance to strike, between not messing with the core planks of the programme, which I do believe the people running the show should avoid most of the time... and not letting it be bogged down by irrelevant throwaway lines from 30-odd year old stories. I mean, the people making old Who were making this stuff up as it went along anyway... But yeah, I see the potential of making a good story out of the thirteen thing, but I don't know if I like the idea of the programme makers allowing themselves to be constrained or limited by it, because (personally!) I don't really think of it as an essential element of the programme or the character - I mean, it's barely been mentioned really in the history of the show it's just something we fans "know". But as I say, that's just my opinion, having my cake and eating it too as per usual. ;D Anyway, this whole thread might well be irrelevant, as someone else reckons the previous stories have got the wrong end of the stick (it's the last item in the column): www.sfx.co.uk/2010/10/14/thursday-link-a-mania-9/;D
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Post by clocketpatch on Oct 15, 2010 1:54:56 GMT
But, it has to be canon, because this nonsense aside, rumours on the Interwebs tell me that this episode will confirm the-we-already-knew-it-was-canon of Ian/Barbara !!
;D ;D ;D
How much squee is that?
I love the SJA. It's where the best excessive Classic Geekery of the franchise lives.
Also, Clyde is the man. And hot. I will not appologise.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 15, 2010 21:38:14 GMT
Hear that sound, Clocket? That's the sound of me squeeing after I've watched this story - I'm squeeing so hard that it's actually travelling back in time (at least I hope I am...will be...whatever, if that rumour turns out to be true). ;D
If I'm perfectly honest, it's the main reason I watch SJA, the incredibly high classic Who reference quotient. ;D I mean, there's more and more of that stuff creeping into NuWho too (I'm not complaining), but SJA has always been especially packed with it. I did read a post on Livejournal the other day questioning the value of including so many references which are only going to fly above the heads of SJA's young target audience. I kind of have to shake my head at this sort of thinking - surely gratuitous fanw*nk is its own justification! ;D
Oh, and undeniably, Clyde remains The Man. It's a scientific fact.
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Post by Maggadin on Oct 15, 2010 22:14:46 GMT
RtP, after reading your post I actually agree with you. It would have been interesting to see the Doctor truly face his own mortality. A thought, though: Maybe the whole thirteen thing was actually not a biological thing, but a rule put in force on Gallifrey, in order to prevent Time Lords from living forever for various reasons. This would mean that renegade Time Lords wouldn't necessarily follow it, and now that there is no Gallifrey there really is no reason whatsoever. I I can finally believe that Sarah Jane ran off with Harry and lived happily ever after. That's how I choose to look at all this anyway. I'll just put SJA firmly in the realm of Unbound Stories and be done with it. Yay, another Sarah/Harry shipper! I like to believe that they were together. In my fanon, Harry died of aftereffects from Skaro. He was the elephant in the room during School Reunion and actually who SJS was talking about when she talked about the man that nobody could compare to. ;D
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Post by magnusgreel on Oct 16, 2010 3:36:36 GMT
M Smith's Doctor isn't exactly under oath. Who says he can't give a quick, easy, false answer to a very personal question? I'd like to see more deep continuity breaks though. They might as well go all the way. They're doing their own version of DW, and they should be able to make their own ground rules for it.
If they were genuinely creative about it though, they'd use the impending "end" as the opportunity for a great story, which could (with great difficulty) result in a surprise life-extension for the Doctor. They're just sidestepping it instead.
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Post by Maggadin on Oct 16, 2010 14:47:53 GMT
I don't agree that they should make ''clean breaks''. It's not a reboot, after all, it's a continuation. If it wasn't, Eccleston wouldn't be the Nine but One. I still don't think that ditching the whole thirteen regeneration thing is a disaster. Sure, it would've been cool to see what they could do with it, but it doesn't bother me to the extent that certain...other decisions have done.
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Post by Stripes on Oct 16, 2010 18:43:46 GMT
I want the Doctor to die. I really do. Sorry but they can't keep this show on forever, already I am seeing so many repeats of stories and well.... I think after the thirteenth the show can get tiring.
Seeing the Doctor live forever to me comes off as saying "the Doctor is immortal because he is super awesome and powerful" which the Doctor is not. Smart, Yes, but he is not an immortal super hero.
... yes I need to sit down and allow my thoughts to organize themselves on this issue one day.
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Post by clocketpatch on Oct 16, 2010 22:52:43 GMT
Agreed Newton. I think that's one of my biggest problems with Torchwood Jack - once you know that a character isn't going to die (and stay dead) that kind of lowers the stakes a bit. Of course, with the Doctor, the biggest stake going isn't so much death, as that he will regenerate into the wrong person and turn into the Valyard/Dreamlord/the Master/Morbius/Rassilon/insert-your-favourite-villain-here.
I kind of like that the franchise is dealing with the (somewhat arbitrary limit) via a throw-away line in the spin-off rather than making a great big deal out of it. While I'd love to watch the Doctor get morbid and careful as his last life approached... didn't we already kind of see that with Ten when he thought that he was going to die permanently? We don't want another End of Time on our hands, do we?
(granted, I didn't exactly dislike the End of Time. I was too busy staring at the screen going WTF? WTF? to actually dislike it)
Still, instead of saying that he has an unlimited number of regenerations left, it might have been more prudent to have him say that he doesn't know, make some comment about being old and things being different now that... and then let the action continue.
Of course, I'm nit-picking. I haven't seen the episode yet (none of us have!) we don't know the context. we don't know if the Doctor is lying or not. And, whatever happens, his regenerations will be exciting as we all gather around the Internet fireplace to discuss how the new guy won't possibly be able to live up to the legacy.
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Post by Maggadin on Oct 17, 2010 0:00:48 GMT
Newton: I agree with you. That was one of the consequences of making the Doctor the Last of His Kind. Before, he was this trickster-ish, anarchist clog in the machinery, now he's almost a superhero and practically a demi-god. I have a whole (probably batshit) post in me about how this is all part of the 'americanisation' of British (and European) telly in general i.e. a protagonist going from being important due to their place in larger society to being important because they're The Lone Wolf (AKA Only One Man Can Save Us).
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Post by jjpor on Oct 18, 2010 21:11:35 GMT
Another involved debate... we need to be careful - casual browsers might get the impression that this is, like, a serious Doctor Who site or something! ;D
I...I don't really want the Doctor to die, to be honest. I sort of like the fact that Doctor Who is now ludicrously old as far as television programmes go, and I'd like that to continue, really. ;D Unlimited regenerations isn't actually the same thing as immortality after all - I think it's become a sort of rule of thumb that anything that would kill the Doctor, like, instantly without giving him a chance to regenerate would kill him for real. Is that other people's understanding?
So, I am torn. On the one hand, I do kind of like the idea of addressing something that has exercised some parts of fandom in such an offhanded way... On the other, I do sort of think maybe cooler just not to mention it at all. And then again, the idea of keeping it all uncertain and up in the air to keep us all guessing (and leave open the option of springing a nasty surprise on new series viewers who might not know about the thirteen regenerations thing) has its merits too.
I think we've had a morbid, maudlin Doctor too recently to want to do it again (EoT not being one of my favourites), but I see how the Doctor thinking this incarnation might be his last could make for a compelling story, done right... And yes, no guarantee Eleven is telling the truth after all, so...
So... I guess we're just waiting to see how he says the line, if he does, and then the debates can start all over again... ;D
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Post by Stripes on Oct 18, 2010 22:28:44 GMT
EoT was the Doctor thinking he was going to die? I thought it was Ten simply not wanting to be anybody else because lets face it, Tennant is full of himself and Rusty has a mad crush on Tennant.
Look, if they are going to give this "DOCTOR CAN REGENERATE AS MANY TIMES AS HE WANTS BECAUSE HE IS LIEK A SUPER AWESOME TIEMLRD GOD!!!!" Then I want the Doctor to have an option to die and that one day, just one day the Doctor goes "you know what, I am tired of living. It's time to move on like the rest of the universes does" thus ending the show for good. Sorry but nothing lasts forever and I rather see the Doctor say his goodbyes then have the show suddenly be canceled, leaving you wondering what happen to the Doctor or his companion.
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Post by clocketpatch on Oct 18, 2010 22:29:14 GMT
I think it's become a sort of rule of thumb that anything that would kill the Doctor, like, instantly without giving him a chance to regenerate would kill him for real. Is that other people's understanding? Like getting shot by a Dalek for instance?
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Post by johne on Oct 18, 2010 23:14:10 GMT
I want the Doctor to have an option to die and that one day, just one day the Doctor goes "you know what, I am tired of living. It's time to move on like the rest of the universes does" thus ending the show for good. Sorry but nothing lasts forever and I rather see the Doctor say his goodbyes then have the show suddenly be canceled, leaving you wondering what happen to the Doctor or his companion. That happened, more or less, in Death Comes To Time, in which not only the Doctor but all the other Time Lords obligingly die one by one as soon as their usefulness to the plot ceases. It wasn't intended as an ending, though, but as a pilot for a new series; the idea being that the only Time Lord left at the end (Stephen Fry's Minister of Chance) would have taken on the Doctor's mantle and perhaps his title. And I don't think any showrunner could end the show 'for good' -- at least, they couldn't do it by in-universe things like killing the Doctor, destroying the TARDIS or blowing up the multiverse.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 19, 2010 22:36:23 GMT
EoT was the Doctor thinking he was going to die? I thought it was Ten simply not wanting to be anybody else because lets face it, Tennant is full of himself and Rusty has a mad crush on Tennant. Well, it was Ten treating his impending regeneration as if it were his final death...but I don't disagree on you with regard to Rusty and Ten... I like Tennant, though, I think he's all right, whatever misgivings I may have about some of the stories he acted in. I rather see the Doctor say his goodbyes then have the show suddenly be canceled, leaving you wondering what happen to the Doctor or his companion. But that's more or less exactly how they ended classic Who in 1989, just kind of "bam!" - over, no explanation, fill in what happened next using your own imagination. And people did - we got like 16 years of novels and audios and comic strips out of it, most of them pretty decent, and then a new series at the end of it. So all in all, looking back from the standpoint of 21 years down the line, I think that was exactly the perfect way to end it, and I hope NuWho goes out the same way too, when it eventually, inevitably does. ;D Like getting shot by a Dalek for instance? Er...yeah...? Er... *handwaves furiously* Dalek Fred's batteries were running out! Or he only hit like his arm! Or...or...something... And I don't think any showrunner could end the show 'for good' -- at least, they couldn't do it by in-universe things like killing the Doctor, destroying the TARDIS or blowing up the multiverse. Yeah, this is my view, really. Or my fervent hope. One or 'tother...
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Post by reversethepolarity on Oct 22, 2010 1:27:12 GMT
But, it has to be canon, because this nonsense aside, rumours on the Interwebs tell me that this episode will confirm the-we-already-knew-it-was-canon of Ian/Barbara !! ;D ;D ;D How much squee is that? I love the SJA. It's where the best excessive Classic Geekery of the franchise lives. Also, Clyde is the man. And hot. I will not appologise. Oh, you don't have to tell me how awesome SJA is, Clocket. = ) Just because I say I don't consider something canon doesn't mean I don't love it. I mean, this is Doctor Who. One day something can be canon and the next it's out and then the next day this part of it is back in and another part is ignored. Canon or no, it's Doctor Who and I love it. I mean, I'm never really sure what to do with the movie, either, but I still love it to pieces. (Which makes me weird, but whatever. I can't help it!)
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