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Post by merrythemad on Nov 17, 2009 21:46:07 GMT
Abby, I'm about to answer your questions but am afraid of spoiling someone so I am whiting out my answer Yes! I do think ten could have lived a bit longer had he skipped this particular trip, but I also think Ten seemed off from the beginning of the episode, using this as part of the story as opposed to technical reasons, I believe he would have led himself to a crux point very soon after choosing to leave Mars, even if he had left RIGHT AWAY he still would know he left them all to die and on an already strained psyche he was heading for a snap, either way
JJ we'll know by friday I should think whether RTD lost his erm testes when we can view the first three minutes of the Christmas episode. Your comment about being a coward and turning off the radio broke my heart, because I was yelling at him to turn the damned radio off he was only beating himself up with it. Assuming he really did HAVE to leave I think listening to radio was embracing cowardice not humanity or any other good attribute, he was punishing himself for doing the right thing. which brings us to my problem *sigh* you knew there would be one, didn't you?
You lot okay this fixed point in time business has never been really well explained and now they attempt to utilise this device with little to no explanation, I am not happy, why do daleks give a crap about human history? It seemed before certain things just HAD to happen but it also seemed like Bowie Base One (and how sad am I none of you commented on the naming of the base) had to blow up just so humans could reach the stars, so is this not a fixed point in time then? Or are points fixed throughout time that relate SOLELY to the human race, of course reaching the stars effects all races eventually but come on! Either explain it or ditch it this halfway between stuff really just irked me
Johne I heard the ood song before i saw the odd but then I Also knew the ood was cominbg so that could be why
LL I was too busy hoping Adelaide would shoot the Doctor to worry over her shooting herself, one of the few times I've been taken by surprise
K< I didn't respond to nearly enough and if I missed you, I bet I had something to say just didn't say it yet, I'm sorry oooh! CP
CP I so so so so want him to stay evil, it would be most awesome, b ut I doubt the show will be brave enough to do it, but ESP when he said "Nobody can stop me" he was begging for it! maybe they actually WERE setting this up? We can hope, ya?
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Post by jjpor on Nov 17, 2009 22:43:21 GMT
*Merry, you've won me over with your interpretation of the radio thing. I still think it was a powerful moment - most Ten!angst to date hasn't really been about anything *real* - blahblah Last of the Time Lords, blahblah Rose etc - but the terror and loss and grimness of that scene was, well, it was brutal. Children of Earth territory again.
Otoh, I think you're right about turning of the radio not necessarily being an act of cowardice, but an act of moral strength. Maybe that scary sort of moral strength Seven had, perhaps, but yes I think you're right; Ten was punishing himself there, but moreover, giving himself an excuse for turning back and helping because that was what he really wanted to do. Seven, if he decided that was he had to do, would have just done it, decisively, one feels. And Ace might have called him a scumbag, afterwards, but thems are the breaks...
I too kind of scratch my head at the "fixed points in time" idea - I mean, didn't One tell Barbara "not one line"? Either you're in the history-tinkering business, like the Monk, or you're not. The Time Lords, as an institution, weren't, or so it seemed. Except when it suited them! They imposed these rules, because they were the rulers of time and the guardians of cause and effect. Sure some points of intervention are going to mess history up worse than others, but that's just a strategic consideration for someone like the Meddling Monk or the Academicians Militant of the Time War (see, you've started me off into weirdo Time War fanfic territory again - hope you're happy!). But basically, yes, tampering with history at all is surely wrong per se, by Gallifreyan standards. "Fixed points" sounds like a plot-driven have-your-cake-and-eat-it type concept. Anyway...
On to Daleks, because you know how much I love talking about the deviancy of Daleks. I'm sure in the Time War, the Daleks were the ones smashing up history as they saw fit, being ruthless to the point of recklessness as they seem to be. It seems false to me too that a Dalek would even care about fixed points in history, especially not in relation to an inferior species like humans. More likely, that particular unit had been given an order to "exterminate all adult humans - we'll get the kids later" or something, and you know what they're like with orders...
And yes, I think I would have preferred continued Evil!Ten or Adelaide shooting Evil!Ten to the thing with the Ood, but if what you say about RTD is true, there is hope yet! ;D*
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Post by clocketpatch on Nov 17, 2009 23:25:22 GMT
I've got to go with Merry on the radio as well. The whole 'walk through the fire' scene irked me for one main reason:
None of it had anything to do with Ten.
Yes, it was a tragedy, and a very well written one at that (I'm sure I'm not the only one who was tearing up when that woman was saying good by to her children's video-link message)
But Ten has a way of twisting these things so that it's not about the people who are suffering and losing; so that it becomes about him and 'boo boo I'm the Last Time Lord and I can't save them and my life sucks"
And then at the end he was treating it like a win for himself (which he always does really). The way he doesn't look at the whole picture and disregards the effects that events will have on others just boogles me. And yes, I know it's a long stretch to expect human-style empathy from an alien, but, well, he's been hanging around Earth for longer than most of us -- shouldn't he have figured it out by now?
And then he finally seemed to realize this at the end. For me, that's almost as awesome as dark!Doctor (though, I'm not fully convinced that we've seen the end of dark!Doctor)
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Post by Abbyromana on Nov 17, 2009 23:48:37 GMT
You lot okay this fixed point in time business has never been really well explained and now they attempt to utilise this device with little to no explanation, I am not happy, why do daleks give a crap about human history? It seemed before certain things just HAD to happen but it also seemed like Bowie Base One (and how sad am I none of you commented on the naming of the base) had to blow up just so humans could reach the stars, so is this not a fixed point in time then? Or are points fixed throughout time that relate SOLELY to the human race, of course reaching the stars effects all races eventually but come on! Either explain it or ditch it this halfway between stuff really just irked me Merry, I don't know if I quite get your pondering here, but I'll give answering it a go as I'm understanding you. FIxed points don't just refer to humanity's history. In the DW audios at least, several have popped up in terms of other races, such as the Mondos, Skarro, and Peladon (also in the TV show). Thus, these are also key and the Doctor goes out of his way to make sure they still happen as they should. Now, getting down to what I think you are asking.
First, I'm sure the defining of 'fixed points' is probably subjective to Time Lord laws and calculations, which is beyond our science and philosophy, so I won't pretend to understand how they are known by people like the Doctor and Eve from The Mad Women in the Attic. Still, they seem to have existed for sometime in Doctor Who fandom for some time. Often, they seem to be comlpetely unchangeable, even if someone tries. For example, the episode Left Turn showed how Time itself kept trying to find a substitute for the Doctor after he died with others dealing with threats, such as Jack and TW combating Sontarans, and Sarah Jane and her team combating the Judoon with the help of Martha Jones. I think we can say that always happened in WoM. Adedla(sp?) helped keep a critical aspect of the 'fixed point', but in a way she was simply a new tool in upkeeping it. Previously, she would have died in the explosion, now she died at her own hand.
Second, the blowing up of the base is a 'fixed point' as the Doctor refers to the explosion, which does still happen.
Third, I do think the Daleks would care about messing with history, particularly when it would affect their own history. Consider, if you will, the fact that several key attacks and events occur in Earth's future and are led by the Daleks. If they or at least the high ranking Daleks are time sensitive enough to know when a 'fixed point' exists, they might know not to mess with it. However, on a side note, I still believe there was more reason why the Dalek didn't shoot Adedla(sp?) (maybe it didn't see her as she thought, it's weapon was broken, it was on a specific mission, it spotted a more important target aka the TARDIS, etc). I mean the Doctor may not know for sure what truly led it and Adedla(sp?) could have been mistaken or miss remember after all these years.
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Post by clocketpatch on Nov 17, 2009 23:56:05 GMT
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Post by Abbyromana on Nov 18, 2009 0:06:47 GMT
(maybe it didn't see her as she thought, it's weapon was broken, it was on a specific mission, it spotted a more important target aka the TARDIS, etc).
Haha, I now want to believe that it diverted from shooting her to go exterminate the Doctor.
Are those your plot bunnies hopping that hear, CP?
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Post by clocketpatch on Nov 18, 2009 0:52:41 GMT
Haha, I now want to believe that it diverted from shooting her to go exterminate the Doctor.
Are those your plot bunnies hopping that hear, CP? Nah, actually, my bunnies have been toying with the idea that the Doctor's odd behaviour was brought on by an explosion-induced concussion... except, you know, I actually loved his craziness for just what it was. So I probably won't write that.
(the thought that Rusty's known Ten was heading towards this all along make me forgive him soooo much.)
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lostspook
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Post by lostspook on Nov 18, 2009 19:52:03 GMT
I watched it now.
I have to say I was so-so (especially since right now, any emotion in just about anything leaves me a wibby mess, which was, truth be told, my real apprehension on watching it), but I LOVED watched Ten go right over the edge, just for a bit there, and presumably mess up time.
My one question is from the ending it looks like it's Adelaide's death (and well done her for trying to keep things right no matter what) that sends the web of time going kaplooey (and, yes, why does the Doctor seem to have mental internet in his head? :lol:) rather than his actions, but that would defeat the point here.
But I fast-forwarded the middle cos I wasn't up to it. The angst looked a bit over-done even in slow motion.
But I just like DW, mostly. I'm very dull that way. "I liked it..."
And, um, essay, JJ? (Did we really have a week long discussion about the Master? I remember there being a comment or two once. I'll believe you, though! I expect we got quite narrow by the end).
And I mostly agree with Clocket on almost everything there.
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Post by jjpor on Nov 18, 2009 20:08:44 GMT
It seemed like a week...although it was possibly me doing most of the talking - a bit like further up this thread! ;D I just like the sound of my own typing, I'm afraid...
*I think you're right, Clocket - Ten has always been just about Ten, either in triumph or in angst, and his lack of empathy is at times indeed shocking. As indeed it sometimes was in Nine's case. But I think that's a particular post-Time War thing; some of the previous Doctor's showed a very fine understanding of and compassion for the human condition (after Barbara taught it to One, of course). The idea that Ten's whole character arc has been building up to this is a great one - and I want it to be true really whether it was or not, but I think RTD is a cleverer writer than bitter oldschool fans sometimes give him credit for, so I can believe it.
Another moment in the storied career of Dalek Fred? That'd be funny, actually. ;D I like Abby's idea that the batteries on his gun were running low or something (explaining why Ten survived!).
And yeah, lostspook, I suppose that is another interpretation of Adelaide's actions, although maybe all bets were off by then after Ten had started his meddling. I still think history meddling is an either/or thing, you know, either you respect the laws of time or you don't really care. Certainly, that's my interpretation of various points in classic Who that seem in contradiction to the "fixed points" idea from Pompeii and this, but I'll stop before this turns into another ramble.*
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Post by Abbyromana on Nov 18, 2009 20:21:02 GMT
One thing I don't get why so many people are bashing the use of Internet Web pages of the crew. What is up with that? Why does it seem odd or inappropiate?
*I think the Internet sites make perfect sense and are one of the best ways to present information quickly and efficiently ,while also demonstrating the importance of the people and mission. When I watched WoM for the first time, I thought these info pages were the Doctor remembering seeing them. My reasoning is the following:
*First, he's already admitted being a huge fan of Adelaide, so it makes since that like any fanboy or fangirl... *wink*... he's looked up the information and facts he could on her and the mission. Thus, what the flashes to the Internet sites are (in my understanding) is him remembering visiting these records about her and her crew.
*Second, both in new Who and old Who, we've seen that the TARDIS has an indepth database of historical facts on events, times, and people, so these might be pages from the TARDIS' own database. He probably has read and re-read them repeatedly, if he is as big a fan of hers as he says.
*In fact, for all we know he might have been reading them prior to landing on Mars. Maybe... reading them inspired him to visit Mars, which explains the huge fanboy expression he had upon leaving the TARDIS... and by accident he landed during the time Aelaide and her crew were about to die. It wouldn't be the first time reading had inspired the Doctor to go somewhere or do something... and wouldn't be the first time he lands in the right place but at the wrong time.
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Post by jjpor on Nov 18, 2009 20:26:50 GMT
I think it's just an easy way of relaying the information that *not only are these people about to die, they're well known historical figures who are supposed to die at this point.* As a bit of visual shorthand, it's just and updated form of the "spinning newspaper" thing you see in old movies. In fact, I thought they were "newspaper" headlines, and that that was just the standard format for written news in the future era depicted.
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Post by Abbyromana on Nov 18, 2009 20:31:52 GMT
I think it's just an easy way of relaying the information that * not only are these people about to die, they're well known historical figures who are supposed to die at this point.* As a bit of visual shorthand, it's just and updated form of the "spinning newspaper" thing you see in old movies. In fact, I thought they were "newspaper" headlines, and that that was just the standard format for written news in the future era depicted. You have a point in terms of them possibly being digital copies of the newspaper. As someone who just finished her journalism MA, I do know that most news are going into the Internet or ditigal format. Still, that doesn't mean the TARDIS couldn't have a collection of these digital news stories and facts' charts. Since the Doctor is a fan, he might have collected them to pour over them in better understanding another one of his heroes, and I still think it is possible that could have been a reason he went to Mars in the first place. Well, that's what my fanon will be for now. Thanks for replying, JJ... my other half. XD
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Post by johne on Nov 18, 2009 21:10:39 GMT
I still think history meddling is an either/or thing, you know, either you respect the laws of time or you don't really care. Certainly, that's my interpretation of various points in classic Who that seem in contradiction to the "fixed points" idea from Pompeii and this, but I'll stop before this turns into another ramble. ] Unfortunately the Laws of Time, The Web Of Time and Fixed Points In Time are things that the Doctor can see and we can't. So, for the most part, we're stuck with the Doctor saying "this time I can meddle / this time I can't" or "I can save Alice, but Bob's for the high jump." It's quite unusual that we see objective confirmation of that -- though not impossible, as the little TARDIS trip in the middle of Pyramids of Mars demonstrates. I think maybe the web pages (which I took to be from the BBC news of the day, though really it would have to be the Hourly Telepress) were intended to be that sort of confirmation.
Oh, and while on tenuous references: I'm putting that sealant down as the quick-set plastic from Wheel in Space, and the Secret Spanish Spacelink project down as a prototype teleporter that would give rise to the T-Mat network in Seeds of Death.[
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Post by clocketpatch on Nov 18, 2009 22:36:27 GMT
One thing I don't get why so many people are bashing the use of Internet Web pages of the crew. What is up with that? Why does it seem odd or inappropiate? A bit odd maybe, but I didn't find it distracting. Mostly it just amuses me to think that Time looks like the BBC news website.
To the point where I might start using this in fics...
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Post by IMForeman on Nov 19, 2009 3:22:46 GMT
One thing I don't get why so many people are bashing the use of Internet Web pages of the crew. What is up with that? Why does it seem odd or inappropiate? Well, I thought it beleaguered the point a bit. Once would have beeen fine, doing it for each crew member was a bit much. It more took me out of the moment than anything. Which, to be fair, could be related to the fact that I felt it necessary to pause the screen each time one came up to read what it said. * You know, I've never liked Ten very much, and mostly resisted the urge to look back fondly on him now that his tenure is ending. And even though S4 Ten was actually nice most of the time, I still haven't forgiven him for much of his S2 and S3 behavior. And yet...I think I'm starting to like him for the first time. Because of this (well, technically this, and the fact that lately I've been watching every show/movie that DT has been in that I can get my hands on and have maybe become a wee bit obsessed...but still). I'm a little concerned by what that says about me.*
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lostspook
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Post by lostspook on Nov 19, 2009 9:29:21 GMT
In relation to a comment JJ made (that I can't be bothered to find, *cough*), I may be inventing this, but I'm pretty sure in DWM RTD has said more than once that he's always known (or known for ages) how Ten dies. So, yeah, it's actually possible.
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Post by merrythemad on Nov 19, 2009 14:41:49 GMT
Lost, he does that say, I too am too lazy to go and hunt down the quote, but you can prolly find it on whovian.net or den of geek.
Foreman, I'm the first to say Ten is a sociopath, but I DO genuinely like him, he's a great Doctor, even if he is a bit self-important, I don't feel this says anything bad about you just that in the end, he won you over too, lol
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Post by Abbyromana on Nov 20, 2009 0:43:46 GMT
Lost, he does that say, I too am too lazy to go and hunt down the quote, but you can prolly find it on whovian.net or den of geek. Foreman, I'm the first to say Ten is a sociopath, but I DO genuinely like him, he's a great Doctor, even if he is a bit self-important, I don't feel this says anything bad about you just that in the end, he won you over too, lol Okay, I'll be the first Ten fangirl to admit he does have faults. Of course, I think you can that about any of the Doctors really. And maybe, more than the previous Doctors, he does step into emo land... perhaps lingering there to pick tear-dropped flowers more than necessary. Still, at the end of the day, he has that spark, those characteristics, that charm and energy that I believe most of us Whovians... Doctor fan fans... etc... love, which makes him both the Time Lord we'd love to throw a cake at (shout out to those cake fic fanatics out there) and smile with as he takes us off on another adventure to who knows where. So whether you love him or hate to admit he makes you smile on the inside, he's a good Doctor... despite the issues. *steps off TARDIS-shaped podium* Excuse, while I run off to hopefully get Stones of Blood ready for the next DW Live. I hope to see you all there.
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Post by clocketpatch on Nov 20, 2009 3:06:37 GMT
And maybe, more than the previous Doctors, he does step into emo land... perhaps lingering there to pick tear-dropped flowers more than necessary. *falls about laughing* That just made my day AR.
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Post by Stripes on Dec 22, 2009 20:47:16 GMT
My neighbor siad the ending was a little over the top, which I am starting to think he's right. Yet, I still find it interesting on where RTD is going.
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