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Post by IMForeman on Jan 20, 2009 21:43:49 GMT
Newton, would you mind whiting that out? I looked away before I read very much but I'm trying not to be spoiled for it. I white it out. Sorry. I feel bad seeing how upset I get over spoilers. I love my audio plays so I know how you feel. That's okay. Thanks. No wonder he had temporary amnisia! Right planet. Wrong country. He would have done a lot better... and probobly not have died if he was in Britian because UNIT would have sorted everything out for him. =) I don't understand why in so many fanfics Eight is depressed or has amnisia. His amnisia only lasted a short time and the majority of his life was pre-timewar. On the subject of the timewar, why destroy Gallifrey? And why not bring it back? They brough the Daleks in from anothoer dimention. Why couldn't Gallifrey have gone where the Daleks did. It's not really fair that they bring back his enemies but they can't even bring back his own planet. :/ It's not just fanfics. It's very common in the books and in some of the audios as well. It's a character trait or something. *shrug* There's very little official canon to go on but it's still silly. I think the destruction of Gallifrey was a good thing for the show and bringing it back would negate Nine's arc unless it required a lot of personal sacrifice for the Doctor. The Daleks have to always be there, although I'd like a break for a little while.
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Post by Starflower on Jan 20, 2009 21:56:08 GMT
Gallifrey has always been there... until they destroyed it. I personaly don't find Nine to be as emo as some people say. That's one of my main problems with NuWho is that Gallifrey isn't there.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 21, 2009 3:24:05 GMT
Nine isn't emo; Nine is PTSD and raw emotions and grief, but not Emo. Nine is fantastic. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry Ten with the *sob* "they..." *sob* "they break my heart" is the emo!Doc of the pair, but um... yeah. lol. *huggles Ten* you're so silly Ten. anyway, back to topic, though bringing back Gallifrey would wreck some of the raw emotion whistling around and negate Nine's grief, I will still cast my vote to bring the Time Lords back. Why? Because the Doctor is supposed to be a rebel, but without Gallifrey there's nothing for him to rebel against. He's just a rebel without a cause, a "lonely god" of dubious morallity (granted... the Doctor's morality is always a bit sketchy...). But, without the Time Lords, he doesn't really stand for anything. It's like he's just going through the motions. Also, the Time Lords (not the Master, the actual stuck-up Time Lord society) provided the one foe which the Doctor could never fight and win against. He could run, but they could still call him back, or exile him, or whatever. I just think it made for an interesting interplay. (also, the CIA randomly redirecting the TARDIS gave a good excuse for the "why is it we always land places where bad stuff is happening?" question) and Romana. except she's still alive. They just need to unfobwatch Donna.
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Post by Starflower on Jan 21, 2009 5:52:28 GMT
I always thought it was funny how the Timelords would exile him for being a renegade and then give him these tasks to save the universe because they don't want to do it themselves. XD
I don't care for what Gallifrey had been turned into with NuWho. They made it this mystical place with all that magical land stuff. Really it was a normal people along with the boring politicians. =) But all we saw were the boring politicians and when you do see normal Gallifreyans (like the Doctor's news reporter friend in The Deadly Assassin) they're quite pleasant and normal.
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Post by IMForeman on Jan 21, 2009 6:19:07 GMT
Yeah, they don't have to bring back Gallifrey for it, but I wish they would establish the Doctor's issue with the Time Lords. He's obviously looking back on them idealistically, but his conflict with them is one of the things I love most about the character. Which is, going back to the TV movie, the problem I have with him being half-human - it gives him a basis to be different from the rest of the Time Lords rather the motivation coming from his own desire. Does that makes sense?
I think the Time War and subsequent destruction of Gallifrey was one of the best ideas to come out of the New Series. But that's me speaking from a practical standpoint rather than a fannish one. I certainly have issues with it, but in terms of successfully updating the show and justifying a lot of the worse but also necessary ideas, it was a very good choice. So for that reason I'd be loathe to bring Gallifrey back.
And Donna is not Romana. Romana is Romana, and she's doing just fine. I mean, aside from her planet getting blown up and all.
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Post by magnusgreel on Jan 21, 2009 9:27:16 GMT
McGann is good. His portion of the TV movie is bad.
It was a different destruction of Gallifrey in the Eight books.
No one mentions THE problem with the RTD destruction of Gallifrey: the fact that wherever he goes in time Gallifrey is gone, yet the Doctor's past, his personal timeline which had Gallifrey and Time Lords throughout it, is intact. I've complained here before about this and was referred to jjpor's Time War stories, and I hope he resolved this somehow, but it seems impossible.
Example: In Father's Day, Nine travels to 1987 Britain, Time Lords don't exist. In Silver Nemesis, Seven travels to 1988 Britain and while I'm not sure it's proven that Time Lords do or don't exist in that story, isn't it safe to say that they do? Wouldn't Seven know it if they didn't?
It's potentially a great idea to have a Time War cancel out combatants retroactively, as long as they producers and writers actually think through what this means to the characters and past events of DW.
So much of what happened in his past changes if no Time Lords were around, definitely all those times the CIA and/or whoever sent him to clean situations up for them, often without any communication about it.
At least make an effort RTD. Make Sarah's past with the Dr a series of different events than the ones we remember.... I could accept an alteration of his whole past or a total "reboot" of the series more readily than this veering back and forth between continuity and no continuity.
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Post by merrythemad on Jan 21, 2009 15:03:19 GMT
Wow! okay, firstly, I LIKE McGann and eight, quite a bit, actually. Secondly, IMForeman, I whole-heartedly agree with you, on every point, truly, and I have never been able to say that here, lol. My only bit is that I take it from the other side, Donna is not Romana, Donna is Donna and that's why she rocks. I also agree that the destruction of Gallifrey is part of what makes the revival series great, and further agree the Doctor being half-human renders a much lesser character (aside from the mutual dislike between the Doctor and the Timelords having obvious racial reasons, it also makes his defense of Earth much less altruistic, although I suspect it's atonement anyway, having destroyed his birth home he will defend the planet that adopted him during his forced exile).
As for the Timewar and how this would rewrite people's personal history, I think that's a great idea, Magnus, but I was under the impression that it all had to do with personal timelines, as both the war and gallifrey were timelocked, once past it in your personal timeline you cannot reach before the time war, since it was outside of time, so for seven the timelords were about but for nine and ten, gone. It is eternal on either side, truly forever, before the war you cannot reach after (though you can visit times past this war, gallifrey is eternal on that side of the timewar and stretches forever, and after the war, you cannot reach before, as lack of gallifrey is eternal on the otherside (though I've haven't a clue how Timecrash would fit into this)). Right so that's my perhaps not entirely clear theory. I do believe a bit of it was adopted AFTER having read JJ's timewar series (which is the canon gold standard my friend) in which case it may not be entirely my own, however, I also thought this before reading, I just believe I may have borrowed his wording. (hahaha college makes one terrified of accidental plagarism).
Whoopsies, I almost forgot, Star, I agree that Master was rubbish, however as was pointed out by I forget whom, he really had literally gone through hell to stay alive, I reckon that takes a toll, and furthermore, he WAS a timelord in a human body, which has to limiting and crazy-making. When you open your eyes in the morning until the time you sit up out ouf bed, you see something like 5000 images, your brain just automatically processes it, I have always thought that for Timelords, it's the same but with higher maths and languages, they aren't even intellectually aware of how much their brain processes in microseconds, for them 2+2=4 is a subconscious process, like the thousands of separate images we see. Suddenly being in a brain where he must do those bits himself has to be more than limiting. However, random poison spitting and bizarre possessions are, I agree, absolute rubbish.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 21, 2009 22:35:31 GMT
I've complained here before about this and was referred to jjpor's Time War stories, and I hope he resolved this somehow, but it seems impossible Magnus, I don't want to be a disappointment to you, but I completely swerve this kind of stuff, because to be honest the series' handling of this issue makes about as much sense to me as it does to you, and thinking about it makes my head hurt. I may throw in the odd remark to make it seem that I have a coherent position on the issue, but in reality... I try to err on the side of continuity even though that goes against the notion of it being a _Time_ War. Merry's theory above makes more sense than anything I could come up with. Love it or hate it, the end of Gallifrey and (most of) the Time Lords is one of the defining things about the new series, and the defining thing about the characters of Nine and Ten. To turn the clock back somehow would, I feel, have the effect of invalidating a lot of what has gone before. Having said that, with Eleven upcoming, maybe a clean slate is needed. My personal position; the Time War as a concept and a bit of backstory represents the major contribution of NuWho to the whole fictional universe, and that counts for something, even if, as Magnus points out, the actual instory treatment of the concept often makes little sense. "I saw it happen - I made it happen!"; one of the great moments in NuWho. Clocket mentions the "they broke my heart" line in the Christmas special - I nearly threw something at the screen when I heard that. So self-pitying and mean-spirited; unworthy of the good Doctor, I would argue. As for the TV Movie; plus points, McCoy and McGann are both fantastic, and the latter in particular deserved more stories. Negative points...er, do you have a spare couple of hours? The half human thing is just mindbogglingly inane, the kissing etc. set a bad example for NuWho. It's the Hollywood, homogenised version of Doctor Who, conceived for people who think Star Trek The Next Generation is compelling TV science fiction. Eric Roberts is sort of chanelling Anthony Ainley but with none of the restraint and subtlety (??!!) - I'll admit to having a certain soft spot for his manic, campy performance, but it's not the Master in any recognisable form. I have the horrible impression that they gave him the glowing eyes because the only Master story they'd seen was Survival (in which Ainley, to retract my above unkind remark, was excellent) and they just thought it went with the character. Reading some of the alleged plans for the series that the movie was supposed to spawn, we really ought to go to Cardiff, throw ourselves to our knees before RTD and beg his forgiveness for ever doubting him, because quite honestly, he looks like the Second Coming of Bob Holmes compared to some of the stuff they (thankfully!) never got to inflict upon us. Spider-Daleks were the least of it... A story arc involving the Doctor's search for his long-lost father... remakes - REMAKES!! - of oldschool stories such as the Sea Devils and Talons of Weng-Chiang - TALONS??! - but transplanted to contemporary America. Truly, we know not how lucky we are with the Slitheen and Journey's End... Oh, and apologies if you like STTNG - reading it back, that comes off as a bit mean.
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Post by magnusgreel on Jan 22, 2009 2:06:58 GMT
There's absolutely no reason the Doctor should not materialize in California, or Kazakhstan, or Liechtenstein, or Ice Station Zebra, as long as he stays himself.
Merry, I cannot even begin to follow your argument, but you seem to have one, and you seem to know what you're talking about. I may start a separate thread to puzzle over it and ask you further questions. I have no idea whatsoever what the Doctor's "personal timeline" is, since he doesn't exist in a bubble and interacts with the rest of the world/universe all the time.
People get parallel universes and erased/rewritten timelines mixed up as concepts, when they're very different things. If you change history it's changed, it never existed anymore. In some alternate reality existing in a different "dimension"... well that's someplace else, it's separate and exists no matter what happens in this reality. People act as if events in our reality that are prevented from ever having happened still exist "somewhere else" when they don't, not anymore. Acting as if they do is more the influence of lots of confusing TV stories I think.
I have no idea if any of that has to do with your ideas Merry. A friend here recently heard me going on about this complaint of mine, after he'd shown me the rest of s3, and he said something about its being the Dr's "personal timeline" too, but when I asked him to explain, he couldn't, and just said we had to "have faith". I replied that I don't.
jjpor... Perhaps you're being modest, if your TW material helped Merry with this. I'm very conflicted on Next Generation. They did some great things as far as I'm concerned, but settled into a stale routine later, and NG is worshipped by countless fans for that later period. still, I wish I could see all that again.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 22, 2009 3:52:12 GMT
The best ever explanation of crossed/erased/parallel time lines was given by the Doc in Back to the Future II. Speaking of which, someone ought to write a cross-over between that and Dw. I agree with you JJPOR on the "I saw it happen... I made it happen" point for that was the moment when I fell in love with Doctor Who. However, I also think it's time to bring the Time Lord - even sans Gallifrey - back into action. It would make a nice clean slate for Eleven. It would also, well, while I understand the Doctor's rose-tinted and silver-treed view of the past I think it's time to introduce the viewer to the fact that it wasn't a very nice society which produced people like the Doctor and the Master. As for "they broke my heart" the thing that puzzles me is; what, they were only good enough to break ONE heart, or was that heart already broken, or... The spider-Daleks I'd heard about, and bad as they would be, I'll raise you an remakes of Talons though... TALONS (?!??) like Magnus, I agree that the Doctor can, and should, be able to land anywhere** however, I'm not sure they should be redoing old stories, not when there are so many books and novel and *gasp* ORIGINAL IDEAS they could be drawing inspiration from. ** in this instance, anywhere does not refer to Cardiff
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Post by Stripes on Jan 22, 2009 4:18:00 GMT
As for "they broke my heart" the thing that puzzles me is; what, they were only good enough to break ONE heart, or was that heart already broken, or... I think he means it's sad to see them go. He lost yet another friend. Am I the only one who isn't bothered by this?
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 22, 2009 4:20:28 GMT
I'm not as bothered by it as I pretend to be, I just like making heart-heart(s) jokes.
also, self-pity does't look good on the Doctor.
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Post by IMForeman on Jan 22, 2009 6:51:18 GMT
My only bit is that I take it from the other side, Donna is not Romana, Donna is Donna and that's why she rocks. Well, that too. Obviously she's got her memory back and the two are jaunting around the universe together. On the discussion of That Line, I was also confused by the lack of plurals (Handy, is that you?), but I didn't have a problem with it otherwise. I was impressed that Ten was being all mature and admitting his feelings - such an improvement from Series 2's "issues? what issues? I am perfectly fine! AND NOW I'M REALLY ANGRY I WILL SHOUT AT YOU!!!!" If it was self-pitying, the guy's probably entitled to it, seeing as how depressing all the series finales are. Seriously, RTD, would it kill you to be nice to him for once? Those plans for a supposed series from the TVM are horrifying. Spider Daleks are kind of awesome in a trainwrecky way, though.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 22, 2009 7:15:22 GMT
I was impressed that Ten was being all mature and admitting his feelings - such an improvement from Series 2's "issues? what issues? I am perfectly fine! AND NOW I'M REALLY ANGRY I WILL SHOUT AT YOU!!!!" If it was self-pitying, the guy's probably entitled to it, seeing as how depressing all the series finales are. Seriously, RTD, would it kill you to be nice to him for once? Good point taken.
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Post by merrythemad on Jan 22, 2009 14:17:23 GMT
A personal timeline is a personal chronology, the Doctor has one, clearly as he gets older, it also clearly progresses much like ours, so if HIS personal timeline has taken him beyond the Time War (clearly it has "I saw it happen, I made it happen" that's in Dalek, yes?) then he is unable to pass through the timelock, so although he can go to times that, chronologically were BEFORE the Time War, his personal timeline remains intact and so there is no Gallifrey, because for him it's already gone, and the timelock applies.
As for parallel universes/erased or rewritten events, being a sci fi nerd from waaaaaay back, I'm all good with those, lol. I'll chime in as well, saying it would be an atrocity to remake older episodes, I mean we think our fandom has continuity and canonical issues now. I shudder to think!
I'll also add my dismay to all of yours over the "they break my heart" line. It was enough to shatter suspension of disbelief and that's wrong. A show should never pull you out of it's spell before the end, in fact, a good show lingers awhile, the way "Turn Left" does. It takes a bit to shake those images and that heavy anxious feeling stays with you awhile as well. okay, I think I have addressed everything I wanted to, may have to reread and edit *sigh*. Oops, I did forget, in spite of agreeing it was and so remains, a really bad line, I feel it does so for the lack of the plural. I, again, agree with IMForeman and think Ten does have the right to wallow a bit, I mean the last time we saw him he had literally lost everything he sent Rose off with the Valeyard (a theory I have made canon for myself), watched everyone happily walk away, and back to kind arms, I might add, and then he "murdered" (though it oughtn't count as the most faithful companion prophecy and btw I REALLY thought they were going to kill K-9 or Jack as he said eternal death as opposed to what? temporary death? oh, wait, Jack does that, and most faithful just sounded like a dog to me) his very best mate. I think we ALL might be a bit morose at such a time, and even a bit self-centered, it's called grief. Yes, okay done now, lol.
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Post by magnusgreel on Jan 22, 2009 16:53:13 GMT
I still do not understand in any way shape or form merry. How can there be a 1987 where Time Lords exist and a 1988 where they do exist?
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 22, 2009 17:33:17 GMT
Because I'm a highly visual learner, I give you the foolproof MS paint explanation of Time War continuity:
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Post by IMForeman on Jan 22, 2009 17:52:34 GMT
That pretty much sums it up. MS Paint makes everything easier to understand. Also, keep in mind that Gallifrey exists outside time, so years like 1987 or 1988 would be meaningless.
"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly...timey-wimey... stuff."
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Post by magnusgreel on Jan 22, 2009 20:58:34 GMT
I have no more idea what that graph means than I did the explanation in words. I'm saying that I don't even begin to understand. (Of course the tiny print is a problem because of my eyes too.)
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 23, 2009 3:19:06 GMT
(enlargable text)
Blue = universe as it was Red = unpassable Time War Yellow = changed universe
Squiggly black line = the Doctor's timeline zigging back and forth between relative past and relative future.
I don't know if the text helps make it clear or not, and, for the record this theory doesn't cover everything. I came to the conclusion long ago that the mysteries of time, space, and Doctor Who continuity are far beyond any possible ken of us mere mortals.
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