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Post by IMForeman on Jan 9, 2009 7:18:00 GMT
Okay, there seems to be a massive amount of love on this board for Three. Which, I mean, I have no problem with. Jon Pertwee was a fine actor and I have a lot of respect for him. Three was objectively an excellent Doctor and had a lot of great moments. However...I just don't get his Doctor. He's not my least favorite Doctor but he's arguably the most popular Doctor I'm not fond of. First of all, while I love UNIT, I don't think his exile on earth really worked. It just got far too repetitive and felt like it was trying to imitate something other than Doctor Who. The whole gadgets obsession was like that as well. I'm not really a fan of Venusian Aikido - it's basically a plot device for the Doctor being able to injure someone without being called violent. Mind you, I'm not pretending K-9 wasn't that either. Lastly, I don't love Jo Grant either, which seems to be integral for liking Three. (*ducks*) She's useful when the writers remember her skill as an escapologist but she spends a lot of time falling into the very stereotypical companion role. Plus his attitude toward her is very patronizing, as Three is to most humans - can I say particularly women, though, or is that incorrect? - but the difference is she tends to just accepts it. It feels like a slap in the face after Liz Shaw, who was dropped for being too intelligent. I want to be clear that I'm not bashing anyone. These are my personal feelings and in no way mean this to be an attack on the characters or the people who like them. Simply, I'm curious why he remains such a popular Doctor, including among people of a different generation, and also why I have my own feelings about him. So go ahead, explain.
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Post by magnusgreel on Jan 9, 2009 8:57:40 GMT
You depict the down side of Three pretty well. The up side makes up for it. The one thing I will point out tonight is that he does often treat Jo in a very special way, as if she's not one of those tiresome dullard humans he has to deal with so often. He'll goof with Jo about the Brigadier while he's standing right there, and doesn't suspect. Three definitely thinks Jo's a cut above. As for the patronizing, I don't blame him for being a little impatient with us. He gets humbled himself often enough to make up for it.
Have you seen them all?
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 9, 2009 9:02:58 GMT
Ah, yes *coughs* I believe I might possibly be the one responsible for the massive amounts of Three love. I may have been slightly biased toward Three fans in my recruiting, and I may have sung the praises of Three across the board gradually winning people to the side of the ruffles... Though, I will agree that his era has flaws. A lot of flaws. And you've mentioned the most glaring ones. There's also some disturbing racism that pops up every now and again, but that's true of most Who pre-80s. Why do I like Three? For one I think it has a lot to do with Pertwee being such a magnificent actor, and the supporting cast is also good. I'll admit that I love UNIT and the Brig as much as I love Three. As for Jo, she's just easy to relate to. Liz was a great character, no word of a lie, but she's not quite accessible a lot of the time; really, how many of us, male or female hold two ph.ds? I think her character was wrongly used and could have been given a better exit, though at the same time I'm glad the writers dropped her while she was still intelligent instead of changing her character and dumbing her down to fit the role. As for Three being patronizing to women, Three was patronizing to EVERYONE, regardless of sex, age, race, species, whatever. Though as far as I can tell the Brigadier bore the brunt of it, not Jo. Reason two: The consistently good plots. Okay, I'm not going to say that all of the episodes were well written, because they weren't, but I find that with most Doctors the quality is somewhat hit and miss. Most of my absolute top favourite episodes of DW aren't Three stories, but then, Three has no episodes which I can't stand to watch either. He seems to maintain mostly the same quality of acting and writing throughout his tenure. As for the stories all being the same. I think the writers did a pretty good job with the whole 'stuck on Earth' thing, and they also knew when to stop bothering with it and reinstate the TARDIS. Yes, I'll admit that having the Master as the villain in Every Single Story for two seasons straight was probably a bit repetitive, but given how things turned out I'm glad that they managed to cram in as many Delgago!Master stories as possible. Which brings me to: the best villains. You bring up that the show seemed to be trying to be something it wasn't during Three's era, and that is a valid point, but I think it's important to remember that the show was trying to reinvent itself. Whether or not you agree with things when DW reinvents is another story entirely (DT's kissing annoys me. ANNOYS!) Anyway, back to point: the Master, the Autons, the Silurians, the Sontarans (whom I don't like personally, but I've heard they're quite popular). Next point: I like the subtle back story. There's angst and there's a cageyness and rebellion against authority and the ever-present Time Lords who sweep in every now and again to remind Three that he's a criminal in exile who must do their bidding. There's the play between Pertwee and Delgado. The play between Liz and the Brig (which, granted, may only be in the collective minds of the fanfic community). But I like all of the little threads which are left open to interpretation. I like the fact that angst isn't overblown and obnoxious. Finally, I just find Pertwee hugely physically attractive. Or maybe that's just his ruffles. But seriously. ;D but then... I always seem to get crushes on actors who are decades older than me... and dead... like Douglas Fairbanks... oh, and Bessie! and her hilarious never mentioned 4th wall bashing plates. Wow, that was long. lol, my inner-Three fangirl waxes verbose apparently. Please bear in mind that I was half asleep while writing all of the above. I must really stop posting when half asleep... Also, I think I should add that I didn't like Three the first time I saw him. In fact, I actively disliked his stories, but he kind of grows on you.
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Post by primsong on Jan 9, 2009 15:59:33 GMT
I'm amazed you didn't like Three the first time you saw him, Clocket - I fell for him right off the bat. ;D Of course, like you mentioned, he's a fine figure of a man and dressed divinely complete with ruffles, which helps in that. I admit I adore his hair and his smile. I find many of the very things you mention and disliking as things I do like, so I guess some of it is just personal taste. I enjoy a good 'Edwardian Gentleman' sort of figure and Jon pulls this off with style. I love his voice and dignified, graceful presentation. His Doctor may treat humans with condescension, but he also has a protectiveness and loyalty to them that shines through, even to the Brig. I enjoy the gadgets and the cars, and yes! Bessie is love! I want a touring car like that! (especially if it comes with a force field, lol) The Whomobile was good fun too, even the naff 'flying' bit. It was Jon's personal property, a custom car that he took with him after he was done - I enjoy it when they integrate the natural interests of the actor into his version of the Doctor. (Jon like martial arts and custom cars, can you tell?) The same was done with Seven's spoon-playing, for instance, and it's always fun. The "UNIT family" made this era unique. I enjoy the cohesion and familiarity that he had with them, a 'chemistry' that comes about when a group of actors work as a team for a longer period of time and are real friends both on and offscreen, the 'two grouchy honourable men' clashes that Three and the Brig have, with Benton staunchly loyal to both and Yates throwing in the occasional wildcard. Jo is incredibly likeable to me, I find her optimistic, cheerful, accepting, spunky and more intelligent than people give her credit for. The Doctor's fondness for her, their mutual trust in one another and her strength when left to her own devices make her a well-rounded character in her own right, I think - watch Sea Devils for instance, and the way they both carry through. And Delgado! He's a reason to watch Three's era all by himself. Yes, the Master was under every rock and bush for a while, but as mentioned, considering the premature loss of Roger Delgado I am so glad they used him as much as they did. Jon and Roger's friendship shines through in the relationship between their two characters and it lends a wonderful dignified respect and regret to their mutual enmity. As to good and bad stories, well - name a Doctor who doesn't have those. *shrug* But as Clocket said, even his weak stories I enjoy watching, unlike some of the others. After all, there's always at least some fun James Bond gadgets or swooshy capes to make it entertaining. I guess I could go on and on, but I have to leave - I may add more later, though you've probably had more than you care to at this point, heh.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 9, 2009 16:18:09 GMT
It's a very dangerous thing to ask a fangirl (or boy) to explain their love; you always end up with these great long lists. lol.
His voice! YES, how could I forget his voice?
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Post by Stripes on Jan 9, 2009 17:59:23 GMT
I am not a Three fangirl but I like him. I hated him at first. I had only seen The Five Doctors and I found him to be a bit full of himself. Oh and Clocket was brainwashing everyone to love him and I wanted to fight the power. Then some Three stories pop up on the Internet and I decide to watch. I didn't care much for him at first but he slowly grew on me. Three should also be proud of himself. A Three/Master episode was the secound Who episode I watched from beginning to end. I was having problems getting into the Old Who but Three taught me to enjoy old WHO and finish episodes. That and will power (it takes a lot from me to finish something). I am thankful to Three for that. Plus, lets face it, Three has UNIT which has Benton. I can't say no to my Benton. *hugs him*
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Post by IMForeman on Jan 9, 2009 19:53:20 GMT
A lot of good arguments made here. Hmm. I don't know if I have the energy to answer all of them, haha, but I'll do my best. Yeah. Ah, yes *coughs* I believe I might possibly be the one responsible for the massive amounts of Three love. I may have been slightly biased toward Three fans in my recruiting, and I may have sung the praises of Three across the board gradually winning people to the side of the ruffles... Ah, obviously I must create my own secret cabal. for Jo, she's just easy to relate to. Liz was a great character, no word of a lie, but she's not quite accessible a lot of the time; really, how many of us, male or female hold two ph.ds? I'm probably a little biased here because I tend to prefer the super intelligent/snarky companions as a whole, especially when paired with the Doctors that are more full-of-themselves. I can't say I've ever really bought the idea that people prefer companions that they can relate to. I know it's a very popular belief, and an idea that's been propagated by the new series in particular as well as being part of the reason given for companions in the first place but in my experience, interesting characters =/= characters I can relate to. You bring up that the show seemed to be trying to be something it wasn't during Three's era, and that is a valid point, but I think it's important to remember that the show was trying to reinvent itself. Whether or not you agree with things when DW reinvents is another story entirely (DT's kissing annoys me. ANNOYS!) That's a very good point because it made me realize that one of the best things about the show is its versatility. It constantly changes its formula and that's a big part of why it's been so successful. And Delgado! He's a reason to watch Three's era all by himself. Yes, the Master was under every rock and bush for a while, but as mentioned, considering the premature loss of Roger Delgado I am so glad they used him as much as they did. Jon and Roger's friendship shines through in the relationship between their two characters and it lends a wonderful dignified respect and regret to their mutual enmity. Yes, yes, yes. You won't find me disagreeing about Roger Delgado. His Master is one of my favorite villains and their relationship is wonderful. This is where I believe the Doctor's exile on earth works well. I also agree that the stories are usually very good. I like all of them much more than most of the stuff made between Season 18 and Season 24 but those are more frequently considered mediocre. However, I don't know how much my opinion is counted for since I love The Time Monster and Invasion of the Dinosaurs whereas I didn't care much for Inferno when I saw it (which was, granted, ages ago when I had just started dipping into Classic Who and had no idea how long the serial was. I need to give it another go). I know a common reason given for disliking Three is that his job at UNIT discredits his anti-authoritarian nature, like he's working for "the man." I don't really agree with this myself, as he seems to be pretty grudgingly doing so and obviously has problems with them on a matter of subjects. Still, it's a far cry from Four's bohemianism and Seven's outright socialism. I'm also intrigued by how the Doctor's attitude changes depending on the politics of the time. Anyway, I think I remember reading some meta espousing this viewpoint and comparing it to the then current social climate but of course I can't find it now. Could be misremembering and it was actually very short.
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Post by merrythemad on Jan 9, 2009 23:07:18 GMT
IMForeman *bows* I rather agree with you and have, in fact, mentioned it somewhere on the board before. Three bores me, he's too typical macho-man. Fight the baddie, save the girl, fix the car and be dashing whilst doing so! I don't mean to be so hard on him, it's just he really does bother me.
I shall add my voice to chorus of Delgado-praises.
I find your point regarding the Doctor's working for UNIT very perceptive and want to add that most of the incarnations will go against what they believe in order to serve the greater good. Further along this line is Three's quiet desperation, one can make a very convincing argument stating that all of the things we dislike about Three are the combined result of his exile (which had to be maddening ) and successfully sublimating the urges he couldn't rid himself of. UNIT fought aliens, it was a bit like what the Doctor really wanted to be doing, or as close as he could get. Three's rude and disrespectful toward most everyone. Three is full of resentment of course he is rude and so on, I won't beleaguer the point.
Right so now I've got myself half=convinced I was posting saying I liked Three, hahaha. I don't dislike him, per say, he is just one of the two I like the least.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 9, 2009 23:51:20 GMT
However, I don't know how much my opinion is counted for since I love The Time Monster and Invasion of the Dinosaurs whereas I didn't care much for Inferno Ah well, there's no accounting for taste but you've just named my three favourite Three episodes in perfect order. I love the bit in Invasion of the Dinos where Three just keeps shoveling sugar into his tea and the Brig just looks at him, and then takes away his sugar, all while they're explaining the exposition, and it's the funniest thing ever. One of my all time favourite Doctor moments. I'm also intrigued by how the Doctor's attitude changes depending on the politics of the time. Anyway, I think I remember reading some meta espousing this viewpoint and comparing it to the then current social climate but of course I can't find it now. Could be misremembering and it was actually very short. I'd be very interested to see that meta if you ever find it again. The way in which the show changes and how that ties to the social climate throughout its history is one of the things about the show which absolutely fascinates me. I wrote an essay on it myself once, but that got lost when the Teaspoon changed its policy on essays... At this point I want to chip in and say that I love all of the Doctors, and they all have their moments. Three, Nine, and Seven are my current joint favourites, but that's really subject to change depending on who I've been watching.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 10, 2009 0:28:32 GMT
I'll come out and make a shocking confession; I'm not particularly a Three fan. Sure, I like some of his stories, some of them very much, but he's not going to come high up on my list of favourite Doctors. Okay, so my list of favourite Doctors only has about two or three on it, and the rest all come sort of joint fourth (I can't find it in my heart to _dis_like any of them). Having said that, there are quite a few things I do like about the Three era:
Delgado!Master - As others have said, he remains the original and best. His relationship with Three may have been a little too cosy at times, considering he was a cold-blooded sociopath who left a trail of innocent deaths behind him, but it was nevertheless very, very entertaining.
The Brig and UNIT - As much of a buffoon as he gradually became, the Brig is very hard to dislike, and the harder, more professional Season 7 Brig was actually a fairly compelling character. And as formulaic as the UNIT family was, Benton and Yatesy and their weird love square with Jo and the Doctor were kind of endearing.
Liz Shaw - One of the very best companions, in my opinion, and a pity she only lasted a season. I'll be honest, Jo doesn't strike a chord with me the way some companions do (don't stone me, Three fans!).
Season 7 in general - a sort of brief, shining, moment before the still very loveable but ever-so-slightly formularised rest of Three's tenure. Spearhead and Ambassadors are great. The Silurians is top notch, and the good thing about it is the way there aren't any easy answers - at least, I can see that both Three and the Brig had a point, or is that just me, blinded by my Brig-love? And for what it's worth, I really like Inferno, might be my favourite Three story. This is maybe because I'm a sucker for eyepatched/goateed Evil Twins (like Goatee Spock in that Trek episode!) in science fiction. For me, though, the very worstest denizen of the Infernoverse is Evil!Benton; the gleeful way he shoots that guy off the tower and knocks Three around! It's guys like him that make dictatorships tick.
So, although I don't join in unreserved Three-love, I can find a lot to like about his era; but then, I can find good things to say about all of the Doctors. It is my curse to try to see the best in everyone. ;D
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Post by primsong on Jan 10, 2009 0:34:18 GMT
Three's rude and disrespectful toward most everyone... Has the Doctor ever been nicely respectful towards others? I can't really think of a one who was. Hah! They each went at it in a different way, true, so I suppose it may be what flavor of disrespect you enjoy in a 'maverick' protagonist. I'm okay with others having other favorites. I always enjoyed the way Bessie became his pet tinkering project when his TARDIS was broken, something he really *could* fix, so I like his playing around with it and don't mind him rescuing the girls - they all do that, it might as well be with dashing flair and an opera cape as any other way.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 10, 2009 0:40:22 GMT
Three's rude and disrespectful toward most everyone... Has the Doctor ever been nicely respectful towards others? Eight was, on occasion, well, as much occasion as he was given. He's rather polite in the audios too (that is, when he isn't being possessed, or losing his memories, which happens to him with alarming frequency...)
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Post by Stripes on Jan 10, 2009 3:47:05 GMT
So, although I don't join in unreserved Three-love, I can find a lot to like about his era; Benton aka JJpor just summed up my thought. I am not a fan, but I do enjoy little bits of his stories, characters and him.
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Post by IMForeman on Jan 10, 2009 7:00:46 GMT
Three's rude and disrespectful toward most everyone... Has the Doctor ever been nicely respectful towards others? I can't really think of a one who was. Two had his moments, as they all did, but for the most part he was very sweet and courteous. I also have to say that it's very easy, when we have the luxury now to go back and forth between so many different Doctors to hold them against each other and debate their merits and so on but when you actually sit down and watch the show, particularly if it's a good story, you can usually just go "well, he's the Doctor." Not that critique is a bad thing, on the contrary in fact, but just to put things in perspective and add to what people are saying.
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Post by merrythemad on Jan 10, 2009 14:46:33 GMT
Has the Doctor ever been nicely respectful towards others? I can't really think of a one who was. Two had his moments, as they all did, but for the most part he was very sweet and courteous. I also have to say that it's very easy, when we have the luxury now to go back and forth between so many different Doctors to hold them against each other and debate their merits and so on but when you actually sit down and watch the show, particularly if it's a good story, you can usually just go "well, he's the Doctor." Not that critique is a bad thing, on the contrary in fact, but just to put things in perspective and add to what people are saying. That's it exactly, IMForeman! It is easy and almost seems a bit cavalier to sit about dissecting Doctors after they fall. However, that's one of the things which makes this show so enduring. There are million message boards honouring the Whoniverse and sure half of them are still swearing they will no longer watch after DT leaves, but the rest have not only looked ahead, they've become reflective. That this show can be discussed and debated intelligently. Fans are able to speculate, and fill in the blanks and really, write their own canon in a manner. So, I'm not still not finished with my first coffee of the day and that was long and convoluted. I only meant to o say, yes we have that luxury and many others thanks to a series of happy accidents in which one cantankerous old man and two teachers travel the world to learn has morphed into the time-traveling rogue exile saving the Universe and always at a cost (as that much isn't new no matter what RTD may tell you). I'm sorry if that was redundant and hard to make sense out of, I need to remember to finish the coffee then check DbA, lol.
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Post by jjpor on Jan 10, 2009 23:09:46 GMT
I couldn't agree more; a good story is a good story; a good script and good performances will always shine through regardless of production values, and all of the Doctors - all of them - have good stories, and not-so-good stories, but there are very few stories in Who (at least, in oldschool Who, I add with a devilish smile) that are so bad that I, at any rate, cannot derive some entertainment value from them. And similarly, whichever actor is portraying the Doctor, when he is written well, and when the actor truly has a grip on the part, there are certain Doctorly qualities that always shine through. Although I do not particularly care for a lot of Five stories, I still like Davison, and even Baker, C has his moments, and I do really rate Tennant and Eccleston, however unkind I might be about some of their stories. Which is why I'm not unduly worried about the new lad, and why, if this doesn't sound too patronising and superior, I really do feel kind of sorry for the people who are saying they won't watch after Tennant leaves. They should read that little Neil Gaiman essay that got posted on another thread the other day, and reflect upon it.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 10, 2009 23:37:53 GMT
In my mind, those that leave with Tennant were never really fans of the show; only fans of him. Who has the ability to be spectacularly good or hysterically bad (in any era).
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Post by jjpor on Jan 10, 2009 23:46:20 GMT
In my mind, those that leave with Tennant were never really fans of the show; only fans of him. Who has the ability to be spectacularly good or hysterically bad (in any era). Indeed - my thoughts exactly. And, let's face it, hysterically bad is better than just plain bad, isn't it?
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Post by Stripes on Jan 10, 2009 23:53:07 GMT
In my mind, those that leave with Tennant were never really fans of the show; only fans of him. Who has the ability to be spectacularly good or hysterically bad (in any era). *nods* I agree.
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Post by clocketpatch on Jan 11, 2009 0:05:47 GMT
In my mind, those that leave with Tennant were never really fans of the show; only fans of him. Who has the ability to be spectacularly good or hysterically bad (in any era). Indeed - my thoughts exactly. And, let's face it, hysterically bad is better than just plain bad, isn't it? Too true, too true... why else have I watched Warrior of the Deep four times??? just crack open the wine, gather a few friends, makes sure all of said friends have a sense of humour, begin. Good times.
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