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Post by clocketpatch on Nov 21, 2007 18:59:30 GMT
It was fun but made no sense.
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Post by vorellaraek on Oct 1, 2010 0:06:23 GMT
Personally, I disagree violently with the theory - I like my nice, alien Doctor fine.
My explanation for the movie is as follows:
1. The Master saw exactly what he wanted to see in the Eye of Harmony - proof of his superiority to the Doctor. The Doctor knew what the Master had seen, so he played along. 2. We have no idea what the Doctor might've told Grace if they weren't interrupted - but they were, and he said the first thing that popped into his head: the trick he'd played on the Master. The "on my mother's side" bit just added verisimilitude.
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Post by reversethepolarity on Oct 1, 2010 4:07:52 GMT
You know, this was explained away in 'The Eight Doctors.' So was weird, worm Master... But, um, don't ask me to tell you how it got explained. I really don't remember. I really should re-read that book. I think it had something to do with misleading the Master, though. I don't think the Doc was aware he was lying, but he may have been. Argh, I must re-read that book.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 1, 2010 19:27:23 GMT
I'm coming round increasingly to the view that we should all just pretend the TVM never actually happened - I did once consider toying with the half-human thing in this epic Doctor origin-story fanfic that I never actually wrote, just cause I thought it might be interesting, but in general I consider it a Bad Thing...
Aren't you just glad they never actually made the TV series the TVM was supposed to be the pilot for? The rumours I have heard about some of the things they had planned... ;D
And welcome aboard, vorellaraek! ;D
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Post by reversethepolarity on Oct 3, 2010 3:12:54 GMT
No way. I loved that movie and I would have greatly enjoyed a series that followed. Of course, it may just be that I want to see more of Paul McGann. You know, though, I think it all worked out for the best. Paul's Big Finish run is still one of the best. So it turned out okay in the end. Though I still would have enjoyed a show from that. I mean, I actually liked Movie!Master... And Grace. But hey, I'm weird like that.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 3, 2010 20:18:26 GMT
Well, I like Roberts!Master too, and yeah, I'd love to see more screen Eight (can't forgive Grace for killing Seven with her medical malpractice, though ;D)...but some of the things they were talking about doing in the subsequent series were like...horrible... I mean, like imagine the worst story idea NuWho has ever had, well that bad NuWho story is like City of Death compared to some of the concepts the US TV guys were talking about... ;D
Although spider-Daleks... I think Moffat or somebody should definitely put some spider-Daleks in NuWho one of these times, just for one episode, just so we can see is the idea is really as kewl as most of the people talking about reviving Who at various points in the 90s seemed to think... ;D
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Post by clocketpatch on Oct 3, 2010 22:40:36 GMT
You think that's bad? You should see the concept art for the cartoon series the CBC was thinking of making during the 90s. I wish I'd saved the links because I've never been able to find it again. I made an icon out of one of the pictures though so I *know* I'm not hallucinating it.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 4, 2010 21:23:26 GMT
I NEED to see this - I don't really want to, because I know it would strike horror into my very soul, but I NEED to...
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Post by reversethepolarity on Oct 5, 2010 3:51:47 GMT
Yeah, that's a good point. You know, I don't know how much faith I would have had in the American crew to get it right, either. I mean, they didn't even know what a Dalek sounded like! I mean, what? Really? And some of them actually watched the show.... Just wow.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 5, 2010 18:49:32 GMT
Well, they said they'd watched the show anyway...
I do have a pet theory that the only reason the TVM Master had the glowing eyes was because Survival was the only old series Master story they'd seen and they just thought he always had them...
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Post by magnusgreel on Oct 11, 2010 15:57:59 GMT
I think his being half-human would be objectionable because it's lifted from Star Trek, and is one of their biggest cliches, the half alien half human, or half this and half that. Also, it dropped out of nowhere, and just wasn't interesting enough to justify the disruption to the program's internal history. It's irritating.
Also, it's there to explain or justify a seemingly magical element in the story, the thing about eyes of humans opening the Eye... by looking at it. I'm sure RTD saw this and assumed magic, though I assumed that there was some sort of electronic lock that required a retina scan to unlock it.
From 1963 up to the last NA novel I heard (mid 90s) and the Fox movie, these problems were left open and vague enough that anyone could decide on her/own versions of things. If you want him half-human, fine, and I hear "The Eight Doctors" rationalized it away. It's nice to have a choice.... I choose the latter.
As for the movie in general, I love the Sylvester part, then the McGann part falls apart, I think. I hear the script made sense originally, but the network demanded cuts. That console room and library-- I want to live there. I started liking Sylvester because of that scene.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 11, 2010 18:26:30 GMT
I think it's also the idea that the audience can't identify with characters if they're not human or half-human or want to kiss their companions or whatever. It's characterisation-by-tickbox and underestimating the audience, really, and I think NuWho was guilty of it too (although I think as it''s gone on they've got less nervous and that sort of thing isn't done as obnoxiously as it was right at the outset - and I am talking about RTD in his later years - credit where it's due).
But yeah, Magnus, as on the other thread, I do think that that leaving a lot of things up to audience preference (or more likely not even thinking about it to that extent and just letting the fans read whatever they want into it) is something classic Who had in spades and NuWho could do a lot better at. This is sort of one of my private hobby-horses at the moment! ;D
To be frank, I really do think the TVM is rubbish, really. I mean, not disappointing - outright bad. But McCoy's good in it, and Roberts is actually pretty entertaining in it, and McGann is excellent in it, to the extent that you really wish he'd had more onscreen outings (I know, I know, the audios, but more TV stories would have been nice). And my dislike of Grace is more mindless prejudice at her for killing Seven than any reflection on the actress or the character. I think it's unfortunate, however, that the people behind the camera just had all of these wrong-headed ideas of what they were doing, really.
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Post by magnusgreel on Oct 14, 2010 3:25:53 GMT
I think it's also the idea that the audience can't identify with characters if they're not human or half-human or want to kiss their companions or whatever. It's characterisation-by-tickbox and underestimating the audience, really... Thank you, jjpor, well said. I thought of this after I went offline, which I do a lot, I suddenly realize one more point was needed. Real SF is a sort of celebration of differentness (not a word but it seems to work better here somehow), with the audience not necessarily embracing it all, but still hungering for it. The mainstream audience goes the other way, wanting what's familiar and easy to identify with. That's why making SF for a large audience is so hard. Those are two opposite goals. If you make SF too mainstream, and try to please everyone, you're giving away what's special about SF.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 14, 2010 21:00:52 GMT
I think you're spot on there, Magnus, and I think it's a tightrope Doctor Who has always been walking, really, trying to find a middle way that serves both audiences, although I think it's far more easily said than done. I think we see this in the varying reactions to the new series - different sections of the audience can passionately love and passionately hate the same story, and I think it often doesn't come down to whether the story is "good" or not as to whether it fulfils what you or I as individual viewers and fans want out of it.
I think this is definitely the case with RTD, who I honestly don't consider to be a "bad" writer in any sense (and indeed his long list of non-SF television credits show that he is actually a pretty good writer indeed). However, what he wanted out of Doctor Who and what I wanted out of Doctor Who didn't always (or indeed often) seem to be the same thing.
And I don't think that was entirely down to RTD's personal preference but rather down to what he considered to be the easiest sell to the mainstream audience that the show needed to be the success in terms of ratings and general acclaim that it has been. I think the things like setting the show mainly on Earth and the soap operaish elements with the companions and their families all represented an effort to "play it safe" and to give people who wouldn't necessarily watch something like Doctor Who something that would appeal to them.
And I also think, as I say above, that as the show became established and the people producing it gained in confidence, they relaxed some of this thinking and took more risks and the show was the better for it.
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Stacey
UNIT Red Shirt
Posts: 146
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Post by Stacey on Oct 15, 2010 22:05:25 GMT
I read somewhere that is was just a trick, so I believe that.
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Post by magnusgreel on Oct 16, 2010 2:55:36 GMT
Strange though, jjpor, the earlier an RTD/Moffatt era story is, the more I like it. I lose interest just as you think it's hitting its stride.
Anyway, maybe the mistake is thinking one has to go for something inbetween SF and the mainstream, with a little of each, never including too much of either. It's possible to do a lot of both. It isn't like a see-saw, where the higher one side is, the lower the other is. If the SF situations and concepts are well explained and dramatized, without relying on technospeak, if they explore issues viewers can relate to on a gut level, a mainstream audience will appreciate it. A healthy level of adventure helps too, which both SF and mainstream viewers like.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 18, 2010 21:15:12 GMT
I read somewhere that is was just a trick, so I believe that. I think it's the best explanation we have right now! ;D But yeah, I agree with you on that point Magnus, even if I am a bit kinder to Mr Moffat and his magical thinking than you are. ;D I think it's possible to expand the audience's storytelling horizons with a programme like Who, but I think it's a matter of the people making the show having the confidence to trust their audience. I think - think - that NuWho's overlords have gradually improved in that respect since 2005...
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