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Daleks
Nov 25, 2008 21:50:48 GMT
Post by clocketpatch on Nov 25, 2008 21:50:48 GMT
Don't be modest Jjpor. I've read your fics. If you were writing for DW they'd probably be MORE viewers, and more Hugo awards... seriously, the stuff you do is as good as anything by Steven Moffat.
the "Romana, why are you naked?" line still cracks me up to no end.
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Daleks
Nov 25, 2008 21:54:38 GMT
Post by Aldebaran on Nov 25, 2008 21:54:38 GMT
the "Romana, why are you naked?" line still cracks me up to no end. Erm...
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Daleks
Nov 25, 2008 22:01:37 GMT
Post by clocketpatch on Nov 25, 2008 22:01:37 GMT
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Daleks
Nov 27, 2008 23:50:56 GMT
Post by Aldebaran on Nov 27, 2008 23:50:56 GMT
Peer pressure! Peer pressure!
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Daleks
Nov 28, 2008 14:45:27 GMT
Post by Stripes on Nov 28, 2008 14:45:27 GMT
Way to go Benton, making it big on Livejournal.com.
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greatbriton
UNIT Red Shirt
I Go Ding When There is Stuff
Posts: 146
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Daleks
Apr 12, 2009 5:19:00 GMT
Post by greatbriton on Apr 12, 2009 5:19:00 GMT
I didn't see this as a topic here and its been on my mind ever since getting through all the Nu Who's. And for your knowledge I've so far only made it through NuWho and only through the story "The Daleks" in the first Doctor's first season, so I don't have many Dalek references from Classic Who, other then being aware of The Dalek's through pop culture.
Anyway, I just re-watched "Dalek" from Eccleston's season as The Doctor to get a refresher on my first real impression of the Daleks. As I did the first time, I felt the tension and though only a lone Dalek it was scary. The Dalek went on a bit of a rampage and I felt was a great introduction to a classic villain for a new viewer.
Where I'm at a loss is that every single episode that I've seen after that one has lessened my fear of the Daleks as villains. Every other time they've shown up in NuWho they've come in bigger numbers and seemed to do less damage. I found that one little Dalek so much more menacing then the moments when The Doctor is facing hundreds/thousands of them.
Did any of you feel the same way about this?
While I'm on the subject of Daleks too, I just have to comment on my first look at the the Daleks introduction into the Whoniverse with the First Doctor. I found the story very interesting but the Daleks themselves, because of the times and special effects I guess, were rather laughable. But in a good way. I just found it so amusing that after watching these newer Daleks stop bullets and apparently burn people at a touch and fly, that all they did in these episodes were jump on top of them and spin them around or put a little plastic between the Dalek and the metal floor.
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Daleks
Apr 12, 2009 22:14:48 GMT
Post by magnusgreel on Apr 12, 2009 22:14:48 GMT
I was just never thrilled with Daleks. One thing, they always seemed to have to drop the humor in any story with them in it, maybe because they couldn't maintain any sense of threat with Daleks if there was any joking around. Anything interesting in a Dalek story usually doesn't involve Daleks themselves. My favorite villains are the Sontarans, which they totally destroyed as a credible threat in 21C who.
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Daleks
Apr 13, 2009 22:06:28 GMT
Post by clocketpatch on Apr 13, 2009 22:06:28 GMT
I like the Daleks as a concept - menacing plungers FTW!
but sometimes I think they're a bit poorly used or a bit over-used (and not just by RTD either)
I like all of the B&W Dalek stories I've seen/listened to. There's something charming in the wobbliness of it all, and then there's The Chase which is neither here nor there, but Frankenstein killing a Dalek is, IMHO, one of the best TV moments evah (and Steven's stuffed panda who is his soul mate ;D ...but again, neither here nor there)
Two's Dalek episodes are just brilliant. They should not have been lost.
Three's Dalek episodes are a bit rubbish wot? Except for that two-parter with the Master ;D ;D ;D that one is gold (and now in colour!! YAY! oh I SO have to save my money for it)
Four: Genesis of the Daleks is amazing. It's one of the first Classic eppies I saw, and the Daleks and their creator are both appropriately evil in it.
Destiny of the Daleks... not so much (which is really weird, because you'd think Daleks+Romana+Douglas Adams would be better...?)
Five: I'm not going to dignify that with a response, or a review.
Six: better than Five's requisite Dalek eppy... but I still have no idea what happened in it. All I remember is that Six had a blue coat and I thought it looked quite nice on him.
Seven: Remembrance of the Daleks is win of the most epic variety. The Daleks aren't very intimidating, but Ace's baseball bat and Seven's overacting are. Ish win. Ish love.
Eight: well, um, there are random Daleks in the TV movie, but they're pretty random. And kind of invisible.
That movie is made of the lulz.
Nine: My intro to the buggers too, and one of my all time favourite episode in the series. This is when I decided that I loved Who.
Ten: Eh? Actually, I don't mind Doomsday so much if you cut off the beach scene; ditto with JE actually (er, well, maybe not actually, but there were SOME good parts in that episode if I really squint at the silver lining). Beaches just annoy me. Apparently. (though I like the random disembodied legs that occasionally pop up on them....)
...notice how I'm not mentioning Ten's New York episodes? See my response for Five. Also: Sec's face gives me the willies.
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Daleks
Apr 14, 2009 19:08:05 GMT
Post by jjpor on Apr 14, 2009 19:08:05 GMT
I agree with Clocket that the _concept_ of the Daleks is far more interesting (and, if you _really_ think about it, as I may have done, once or twice... quite horrible, really) than the execution in most of their stories. I guess it really was a bit of a decline and fall for them from the 60s into the 70s, and on into the 80s, with the occasional good bits bucking the general trend.
My experience with Daleks was an interesting one, a bit like with Jamie; I'd heard about them from my Who-fan aunty and my granddad long before I ever saw them. My cousin had seen (I assume, thinking back on his descriptions) the Cushing Dalek films, and from these second hand descriptions they assumed a bit of a legendary status in my very young mind. I think; the thing about remembering things from when you were very young is that you don't know how much of it is real memories and how much is 25-years-worth of embroidery after the fact.
Anyway, the very first Dalek story I know I definitely saw was Resurrection of the Daleks, and I think I kind of knew it was rubbish even then, because most of the Who stories I saw as a wee nipper assumed legendary status in my mind for years afterwards (the Five Doctors, for instance), and that one never really has. In fact, I think that possibly the first time I ever saw a Dalek in the flesh, as it were, was the one that is in Five Doctors for about a minute; I remember the wiggling green tentacles when it got blown up.
As Magnus says, some of the very best Dalek stories are ones in which they don't really feature that prominently. Genesis deserves its place as one of the much-talked-about classics of Who, hands down, but at the end of the day, it's all about Davros, isn't it? Similarly, Revelation is easily the best story of the Eric Saward era (for me - others may disagree!), but basically it's a weird black comedy about death (even Davros has some funny lines!) and the Daleks are mostly just scenery. Although, as a bloodthirsty young'un, I thought that bit where William "Champions" Gaunt gets his leg shot off was top drawer entertainment.
Remembrance of the Daleks...I don't know if I can really give an impartial assessment of Remembrance; I remember watching a lot of 80s Who as a child, but by the time it got round to Seven, I was old enough to be really into the mythology of the show, getting to be a fan I suppose, and all of those stories, even the ones that in the cold light of day, 20 years later, I'd have to admit were a bit dodgy, are still magic as far as I'm concerned.
And I vividly remember where I was when I first saw Remembrance, like the Kennedy assassination or something (appropriately enough!), and how great I thought it was watching those factions of grey and white Daleks taking their war to the streets of London...the Special Weapons Dalek! And Seven facing off with Davros, and the Hand of Omega, and Ace with the baseball bat, and that soldier flying through the air after the Dalek shoots him, his skeleton visible for the briefest of moments...it made a big impression on me, I suppose I'm saying. So, I can't make a cool assessment of it, however much I might want to. I'm just a big old McCoy fanboy, I guess. ;D
And it is a story with heart; it maybe wears its 80s politics on it's sleeve (guess what, kids; fascism and racism are Wrong!), but it brought out the themes that the Daleks were always intended to symbolise, and which they maybe hadn't since the days of Genesis (Davros and his crew of war-movie Nazis; not exactly subtle symbolism, but you certainly got where they were coming from).
So yeah, it had that too. And it makes the point in a good way; grey Daleks and white Daleks, prepared to kill each other for their notions of insane racial purity, but really, there's no difference between them, and the audience can see that. Even I could see that when I first saw it. Do, it's deep too, kids; a bit like that preachy Trek TOS episode with Frank Gorshin in it, only with more soldiers and explosions and stuff, and therefore superior (to my 11-year-old self). ;D
Which I guess brings us to the new series. Dalek is for me still one of the best Nine stories; maybe not on the same level as Empty Child, but close, and it made the Daleks absolutely terrifying for the first time probably since...well, maybe ever, because I was going to say since the 60s, but then I remembered the Chase ;D...
Okay, so they undercut it with a bit of touchy-feely RTDism (everybody has a sob story these days; maybe I'm unreconstructed or something, but I don't want to sympathise with Daleks; they're supposed to represent those sides of human nature nobody should sympathise with), but still a solid classic of NuWho.
Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways built on that; I've come to like it far more on repeat viewings than I did the first time I saw it, maybe part of my general reassessment of Nine and his stories (sorry Ten, you have had some good stories along the way, but Nine had them more consistently, I'd argue). But yes, there are more of them, and the ending is pure Deus Ex Machina, but these Daleks are still something to be feared, and loathed; completely ruthless, completely intolerant (their fascism having morphed into religious fundamentalism, but it's probably the flipside of the same coin), and with all of that madness and insecurity and fear that was maybe only implied in the best of their old Who stories, on display.
So, yes, a solid Dalek story, and from there it was all downhill. I don't really want to discuss the later NuWho Dalek stories in any detail, but once again they have experienced a decline and fall; bigger and bigger spectacle but less impressive any time. Journey's End was the final insult in some ways; I think they will be back in NuWho, maybe sooner rather than later, because that's what the audience maybe expects now, but hopefully not for a little while, and hopefully if Moffat is going to use them he'll want to have a rethink and do something interesting with them again. We shall see.
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Daleks
Apr 14, 2009 19:25:35 GMT
Post by clocketpatch on Apr 14, 2009 19:25:35 GMT
what are you talking about JJPOR? That Daleks are TERRIFYING in The Chase. xD xD xD
For my money that's got to be the best One episode going, just for the lulz. Is it on DVD do you know?
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Daleks
Apr 15, 2009 5:50:59 GMT
Post by magnusgreel on Apr 15, 2009 5:50:59 GMT
I hope that I'll be capable of coming back here later and commenting on Jjpor's remarks in a way that they deserve. The things that I'm doing tonight to enhance brain function aren't all that successful.
As for me, Genesis is tops. "Dalek" is exactly how they should have been treated, thoughtfully and reflectively, with gut-level emotion. Every other RTD Dalek story is hopelessly misguided to me.
I like Destiny. Others don't. Not sure why. I'm ill-equipped to elaborate tonight. Lately Ressurection isn't thought well of either, though that wasn't always true. I seem to have good if vague memories of it. Revelation, the black humor is welcome.
The ones written by Terry Nation seemed to be humorless, odd since TN began his career as a comedy writer.
The Pertwee ones seemed fairly good at least. Only the last one in the end seemed very tired, and it had its strong points. The first was written sans Daleks at first, and maybe that would have been better, I don't know.
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Daleks
Apr 16, 2009 21:19:09 GMT
Post by jjpor on Apr 16, 2009 21:19:09 GMT
No, Genesis is great; as I say, some of the "official" classics of Who are classics for a reason; Davros is a fascinating figure in his first outing, although it was all downhill from there for him (although he manages to pull it back a bit in Revelation). I really like Revelation for the record; I remember when I first saw it as a kid, and my reaction was pretty much "what the - - ? Where are the Daleks?", but it has grown on me with repeated viewings; I like the weird, sinister atmosphere and the generally comedic tone.
I think Resurrection has a couple of worthy moments (that bit where the policemen coolly gun down the people at the beginning must have seemed very edgy and political in Thatcher's Britain, and Five's confrontation with Davros is quite nice), but for the most part it just confuses me. I mean, who were those people the policemen shoot? What's this about assassinating the Time Lord High Council? Duplicates all over the world? What?
Another thought, spurred by the talk about Evil of the Daleks on the Chase thread, and the (frankly quite awful) NuWho Evolution of the Daleks; there's a lot of stuff over the years isn't there about the Daleks maybe needing a "human factor" to replace something of what they (or Davros) have burned and twisted out of themselves in the process of making themselves what they are.
In both cases it proves to be a double-edged sword for them, but still we have the same idea cropping up in later stories; in Destiny, much is made of the stalemate they and the Movellans have manoeuvred themselves into. In Resurrection, they have an army of human soldiers, maybe not just to make up the numbers against the Movellans, but because it gives them some sort of edge. And then in Remembrance, the Renegades have the girl hooked up to their battle computer for the tactical insights she provides (the Imperial faction come off worse in the battle they have, maybe down to this, and only win through applying brute force in the form of the Special Weapons Dalek).
And then the idea comes up again in NuWho with the Cult of Skaro and their misguided activities. So, that's another theme that seems to recur with the Daleks, the idea that they have become something less than they were when they were "human"(oid) and are looking for artificial means to make it right. I don't know what that means, or even if it's just writers recycling ideas from old Dalek stories, but it's something to think about...
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Daleks
Apr 18, 2009 4:46:42 GMT
Post by merrythemad on Apr 18, 2009 4:46:42 GMT
*pipes up meekly in defense of Daleks in Manhattan* Wow, NEVER thought I'd be frightened to disagree with you lot, but just now I must admit I am a bit. Having JUST (as in last night) re-watched this two-part saga, I love it. I KNOW!!!!!! I despised it too, however, Ten is ALWAYS getting kicked by the writers and reacting in the rather flamboyant and manic sort of angst that so characterises his episodes. I've a friend I'm slowly reconfiguring as a whovian (LOL tis a joke he really DOES like it, Halcyon aside) and trying to get him to understand that Doctor Who isn't ALL dark and painful is really rather difficult and this two-parter provides just that ability.
I adore the juxtaposition of the pretty, if incompetent, and so very brave little show girl (with three L's and an H thank you) and all her glitter and glam against the scary and dirty isolation of the pig men, and the bleak despair of Ten's suicidal rant (KILL ME KILL ME KILL ME, holy hell, Prozac,super-genius spaceman, investigate it) against the absolute silliness of DALEKS in MANHATTAN. I mean, even the title refuses to take itself seriously! As for the strange and suddenly acquired ability of daleks to absorb and intertwine themselves with other living beings, it's RIDICULOUSLY far-fetched but so is the rest of the arc, it's meant to be. It's a rollicking good time and after having to explain the Doctor time and again thanks to nuWho's dark and angsty vibe, I really appreciate the fun. Even with daleks.
As for the rest of the great and well-thought responses, i shall respond later, on more sleep and less WMM, which has inspired me to take over the world with Abby and generally become the first successful hippie dictator in the history of the macroverse. Yes, stopping now...no, now.
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Daleks
Apr 18, 2009 9:03:03 GMT
Post by clocketpatch on Apr 18, 2009 9:03:03 GMT
You know Merry, given your enthusiasm, I now want to watch those eppies again; I want to watch a lot of season 3 again because I was just in a rather foul mood while watching most of them, saw them all out of order, and had to wait something like six months between parts for the Dalek episodes...
Sec's face still creeps me right out though. there's no getting around that... ON HIS FACE!
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Daleks
Apr 18, 2009 9:55:09 GMT
Post by magnusgreel on Apr 18, 2009 9:55:09 GMT
jjpor... I wonder if during your very good posts you might insert more paragraph breaks here and there, please. For some reason, it helps enormously with reading for me, and possibly organizing it in my head, since I have the concentration problem too.
merry-- I can't shift gears and watch some DW stories as "camp". I wonder if the cornball speech made by the Hooverville boss to the Daleks while waving his hands in the air was supposed to be funny. I know that I was rooting for the Daleks just then.
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Daleks
Apr 18, 2009 13:10:42 GMT
Post by jjpor on Apr 18, 2009 13:10:42 GMT
No problem, Magnus; when I write these things, I generally don't start out meaning to; I just get carried away with my own verbosity. I guess the long paragraphs are the text equivalent of not pausing for breath; I do it in real life too, but luckily my close associates know me well enough by now to tolerate it! ;D
Anyway, adjusted; let me know if that is better.
Hey, Merry it'd be a boring world (a Dalek world!) if everybody agreed on everything; I know I for one have not quite reached the depths of megalomania where I'll start jumping all over someone for daring to contradict my Holy Word (just don't diss Romana II or Seven and Ace and we'll all get along fine...;D kidding!). I guess I like my Daleks serious and threatening
(which is a bit rich considering how few times they have actually seemed either, let alone both, of those things in their actual TV stories, as opposed to the crazy stories in my head! "Dalek" and some of the 60s stories may be the only time they have actually achieved it; I mean, even in the stories when they have actually been portrayed as a force to be reckoned with, they still tended to be a bit stupid and kind of at the Doctor's mercy - Remembrance is a good example of this).
I suppose my main problems with Manhattan/Evolution was that it represented another rung in their downward slide from the brilliance of "Dalek", and I also felt that they could have done more with the period setting. The Great Depression could probably do with a pseudo-historical of its own rather than being used as background for Daleks.
Anyway, if I wanted to say some good things about the story:
You're right; it does have a lot of fun moments; I think if I saw it again now, having not really seen it since before NuWho started overdosing on the angst, I might appreciate that part of it a lot more.
In a similar vein, I did sort of like the bit where the other two Daleks are gossiping about Sec behind his/its back; it was goofy enough to be really amusing; I was reminded of some of the dafter moments in the Chase actually, with the "nervous" Dalek and stuff like that.
It was kind of inevitable that the others would go against Sec's relatively rational plan (for a Dalek!) and kill him. It was very true to Dalek nature as established throughout their stories; their notions of racial purity (which seem a little ridiculous considering how many times Davros has apparently "upgraded" them since the 80s - forget Parting of the Ways, even Revelation implies that they are genetically at least part human nowadays) come before the survival of their species. Better dead than red, or something like that...which I guess is the big difference between them and the Cybermen.
Similarly, the bit where the hobo leader gets himself exterminated, while unintentionally quite hilarious, was also only ever going to end one way. Trying to appeal to the better nature of a Dalek...yeah, right...
Another thought; I know the 1930s police and authorities were probably somewhat apathetic regarding the wellbeing of Hooverville vagrants, but still, you'd think somebody would have noticed these weird machine things flying around shooting up Central Park, and maybe notified the proper authorities. Still, this kind of thing seems to happen a lot in the Whoniverse...
Yeah, you're right, I just wanted to see Daleks duelling, Kong-like, with biplanes on top of the Empire State Building...;D
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Daleks
Apr 18, 2009 19:31:06 GMT
Post by merrythemad on Apr 18, 2009 19:31:06 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I love daleks, in spite of their constant season finale appearances. I especially love Dalek, because, yes, daleks are scary again! And yes, nuWho has definitely worn their credit rather thin, but Daleks in Manhattan and Dalek Evolution are still really good, in spite of their camp (and Sec's highly disturbing appearance).
I think the depression as a backdrop actually worked, kind of. It would have worked better had they not kept pushing the desperation of everyone down your throat. However, that desperation worked rather well as well, it was a bit like two mirrors facing each other. The Doctor was desperate after losing Rose, the residents of Hooverville desperate to matter in someone's eyes, Martha desperate to matter in the Doctor's it was really sort of a great device had it not felt so contrived.
I mean, the episode has issues, clearly, but then I wonder if any one of us will ever be happy with any episode other than that ONE that is personal to each of us.
Something I find really interesting in the episode is how Ten neatly fashioned himself into Davros. First, he willingly begins to genetically alter the daleks...hmmm sounds like someone we know, he further agrees to take them all somewhere safe and new, restarting the empire (because we KNOW no matter how much human and timelord those daleks have they WILL evolve (devolve?) back to their semi-natural state of violence and domination) and then in the end, refuses to destroy them (revisiting the four and 'do I have the right" and the five refusing to shoot davros scene of the classic age) allowing Kahn to go forth and start it all anew. It's a bitter pill having watched JE and then watching the Doctor LET him go to bring all those events into motion.
*g* I would really like some dalek expert who is also a great writer to tackle an AU with the Doctor as Davros, it's just such a meaty and interesting idea, if ONLY there were someone like that here *sigh* *stares at JJ*
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greatbriton
UNIT Red Shirt
I Go Ding When There is Stuff
Posts: 146
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Daleks
Apr 18, 2009 21:00:24 GMT
Post by greatbriton on Apr 18, 2009 21:00:24 GMT
Your guys' comments and viewpoints on the "Daleks in Manhattan" episodes have made me kind of want to rewatch them as well. My first run through the series I found Season 3 to be my favorite for the most part, except for the Dalek episodes. I found them slowly paced and the whole Human Dalek thing just hurt my head. I felt the episodes and story could have been much helped by not having pig people running around, they just distracted me. But the overall story and idea was interesting and deserves another look. And definitely now, after having watched Journey's End, its a bit more interesting. To see the Dalek get away and it all lead to the sad events of Season 4. But I do have a question. I understand why The Doctor didn't want to see the Dalek's go extinct and why he chose to help. It seemed hard to comprehend though, that he would help them by involving dead humans. Cause that's what they were using, wasn't it? A bunch of dead humans, and off the top of my head I can't remember how they had all died. But it seems very cold of The Doctor to jump in to help the Daleks with their experiments that utilized dead people.
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Daleks
Apr 18, 2009 21:38:49 GMT
Post by merrythemad on Apr 18, 2009 21:38:49 GMT
I have discovered re-watching series is well worth it, there was so much I missed, like for instance, the Doctor's constant manipulation of Martha, Martha's inability to be brave by herself, and usually the other person must be male at that. How distant the Doctor and Martha are, I mean Shakespeare Code is the first and last time we see a real Doctor/Companion relationship between the two of them, the rest of the time she is off distracting the baddies or captured by them or doing something parallel to the Doctor rather than with him.
GB, I think the Doctor helping them has more to do with Ten's dark and angsty sort of madness. Having just lost Rose to the daleks (kinda) he is willing to give nearly anything in order to make their threat be gone. And, actually, the people aren't dead, they are empty. The daleks kidnapped them and wiped their minds entirely leaving them an empty shell and blank slate (though how this helps or is even necessary to their genetic manipulation I've no idea). Oooh, also, what does the FTW on your sig stand for? Yes, showing my ignorance here, but why not I've already defended pigmen and silly showgirls.
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greatbriton
UNIT Red Shirt
I Go Ding When There is Stuff
Posts: 146
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Daleks
Apr 18, 2009 21:56:03 GMT
Post by greatbriton on Apr 18, 2009 21:56:03 GMT
I do have to say that "Blink" gives a good portrayal of Doctor/Companion with him and Martha. Though we see so little of it. But I really don't see Martha as a character that was unable to be brave on her own. I kinda always saw her as a very self assured and confident woman. And quite capable of being brave on her own. Out of the companions in NuWho I felt she was the one that could best stand on her own without The Doctor. But that's my opinion, I guess. And really not the topic of Daleks. lol
I guess I can see where the idea of The Doctor helping them is coming from. It does seem rather mad though, him knowing they had done that to those people and still willing to help in their experiments. But I can see the idea of him just wanting to be rid of them and will do anything possible to do it.
and the "FTW" means "For the Win". One of the silly internet/texting terms or abbreviations.
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