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Post by jjpor on Feb 22, 2009 13:09:25 GMT
I agree Clocket; the vagueness and ambiguity about the Doctor's origins, even after all this time, are one of the strengths of the show, story-wise. And it seems at various times that the status of the Master regarding the Doctor has varied from one option to another. I'm thinking of that line in the Five Doctors where the Master tells One, "believe it or not, we were at the Academy together," as if they must only have been nodding acquaintances. In other places, though, we have all that "best enemies" stuff and the hints that there is this long-term love/hate thing between them going all the way back to Gallifrey. And as you say, RTD even flirts with the idea that they may be brothers, simultaneously suggesting it and cheekily dismissing it in "The Sound of Drums".
Well, as I say, obviously the War Chief wasn't really the Master, because the Master hadn't been invented yet, but I don't think it's wild speculation to think that he was probably uppermost in the minds of the production team when they were thinking of a new recurring enemy for the Doctor to face in Season 8.
And I accept your point regarding the Seven and Eight novels, Magnus; at least they were trying to be consistent with the series continuity, to the point where sometimes they overdosed on the references (although that whole Faction Paradox detour in the Eight novels, while good, was a little strange and I think now Officially Never Happened). I reserve the right, however, to pretend the John Peel Dalek books (War of the Daleks and...er, something else of the Daleks?) never happened, because all they were was a clumsy attempt to write Remembrance of the Daleks out of continuity, or at any rate, to retcon it so that that story was rendered pointless so the extent where it may as well never have happened. And the only reason for that was that Peel's friend Terry Nation didn't like the story, and the only reason he didn't like it was that Andrew Cartmel and Ben Aaronovitch basically ignored his attempts to dictate to them what they could or couldn't do with Davros and the Daleks. Now, this may have been cheeky of them, considering he was the creator and owner of the Daleks and we Who fans, and fans of British TV SF in general, owe him a lot, but still...It's an excellent story, one of the best Seven stories, anyway, and one of my personal favourite Who stories of them all, as well as being a pivotal moment in the character development of the Seventh Doctor, so, all in all, I just have to shake my head at the folly of the novels in that particular instance.
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Post by magnusgreel on Feb 22, 2009 22:59:40 GMT
That's disappointing to hear. I've heard great things about those J Peel Dalek books. Before RTD DW, there was such a big fandom for the novels that it seemed to be eclipsing the TV version of DW. I remember a thread on Outpost Gallifrey from a novel fan, titled. "Are ytou bored with the TV series?", something like that. Fandom was dominated by the Seven/Eight novel fans. Look how fast and quietly all that was pushed aside... I'd actually come to think that it was a wonderful and remarkable thing that Doctor Who had made a transition from having been a television series to being a series of novels.
What would I think if I had been asked to invest myself as a reader (I only got through the first seven NAs or so... I need them taped) in these books as the continuation of DW, for many years... losing myself in this larger more complex world that the novels had created for DW, only to have it all shrugged off silently, often in favor of camp TV episodes about scenery-chewing spiders etc.?
Worse yet, what if I were one of the authors?
They convinced me. The books were Doctor Who. Why anything on TV supercedes anything in print, I don't know.
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Post by jjpor on Feb 23, 2009 23:40:37 GMT
Yes, I do accept your point; there was a lot of good work done in the novels, a lot of history and continuity established and it has for the most part been ignored completely in the new series. It is noteworthy that the NAs were written to incoporate the TV Movie into their continuity, and I don't think they really contradict anything in the new series, so I'd say they were definitely canon. The Eight novels are more problematical, I suppose, but there is an argument that the Time War and all of that happened after the last novel in the range. The problem is that I don't think RTD cares that much, to be honest, and I can't imagine Moffat would be any different.
The various comic strips and audios for the most part seem to take plac in their own continuities, and so don't really come into this.
I don't know if there is a hierarchy of canon or not, but I'd argue that if something in the novels contradicts something on screen then the onscreen continuity takes precedence. Of course, I don't know how that applies to instances, particularly in the show's early years, where onscreen stories contradict each other. My head hurts.
I may be a little harsh with regards to the Peel stories. One thing they do do well, if you can get round the inane, continuity-busting plotting (again, maybe a little harsh!) is take the Daleks back to their original 60s state, pre-Davros, and more particularly to the portrayal you got in all of that Dalekmania spinoff media back in those days, with Golden Emperors and hoverbouts and all that good stuff. And it has a reappearance from Susan and as good an explanation as any for just what the hell happened to the Master in between Frontier in Space and Deadly Assassin. So, I reckon you'd still get a lot of enjoyment out of them if you didn't have my particular axe to grind re Remembrance. I can't bring myself to love them, though! ;D
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Post by magnusgreel on Mar 24, 2009 21:52:55 GMT
I should say that I may not answer every well-thought out post I read, because of the eye thing and the concentration problem for lack of a better term, which is worse now... but sooner or later I do read them.
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Post by merrythemad on Apr 7, 2009 15:16:45 GMT
Wow, I was absolutely going to chime in regarding the Master but now we've gone to who-books, which, admittedly, confound me. I have just begun reading a few BBC ten and donna books (as tis all you can find in the states and only then at one of those ridiculously large places that don't smell like books and steal the soul from both their product and customers) but the whole what is IN-whoniverse and what is not gives me serious performance anxiety, so, yeah, I like Donna and have access to these during the Great Who Drought (which si odd when you realise this is small potatoes compared to the waits we have suffered through with no end in sight) so I read them and now I have only contributed to our being desperately off-topic again. I blame Magnus and JJ is they weren't so bloody clever I'd not have to respond to them at all.
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Post by clocketpatch on Apr 7, 2009 15:24:51 GMT
There's actually a dodgy discount book store in my city that sells the Classic tie-ins (though not the Virgin NAs or EDAs as far as I can tell). I haven't bought any yet because: 1. ridiculously expensive, 2. fanfic, internet, free, 3. my room mates would never let me hear the end of it, lol (though they'd probably read it themselves...)
Anyway, to throw the conversation for another off-topic loop, has anyone heard the BF audio 'The Master'? It's got some interesting origins theories and idas on why the Doctor always feels so guilty over the Master's actions. And, of course, it's Seven...
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Post by jjpor on Apr 7, 2009 21:04:03 GMT
Hmm, yes I have, quite some time ago, and it was very good, very interesting ideas and a lot of that NA-style/Cartmel Masterplan Seven darkness, which is always good. I can still think of a few instances where it's implied in TV stories that the two of them were only nodding acquaintances back on Gallifrey, but I definitely think it's more interesting if they do have this long backstory, and that seems to be the version pushed in some other TV stories, so I'm fine with that.
I was actually thinking on all of this what-is-canon-and-what-is-not stuff, when I was writing some more Time War fic this weekend, and my best guess as of now (and as always subject to change) is:
_Most of_ the NAs are probably canon; that's very likely what Seven and Ace et al actually did in between Survival and the TV Movie, mainly because they do not really contradict anything in the old series, the new series, or the Movie. The only clear exception is Human Nature which, despite being one of the best books in the range, is unfortunately discounted because of the TV remake.
The Missing Adventures/PDAs novels can all be taken as canon, because they are explicitly written to slot in between TV stories - apart from a couple like "The Well-Mannered War" and "Interference Part 2" which were either explicitly written to be AU or tie too closely into EDA continuity (see below) and therefore are non-canon. Although the "Well-Mannered War" might actually be canon, but if it is it is a horrific thought because (SPOILER!!!) *At the end, Four and Romana deliberately trap themselves in the Land of Fiction (from the Mind Robber) as the only way of stopping the Black Guardian from destroying the universe, and as a result, although the rest of Who happens just as we remember it to have happened, it is "only a story" (basically the author explains in an afterword that he hates the JNT era that much he prefers to believe that everything after Season 17 never really happened)!!*
The TV Movie, as much as we might wish it was not, is canon, because we saw Eight in Ten's book in the TV version Human Nature/Family of Blood, and it also meshes very nicely with the version of continuity offered by the NAs.
As good as the audios and some of the comic strips are, they take place in their own parallel continuities, and their producers explicitly acknowledge this. Still, the ones that do not contradict any other canon can probably be treated as canon.
The Eight novels _deserve_ to be canon, most of them, but I don't know how the events depicted in the Faction Paradox/Romana III/War against the Enemy arc depicted therein can exist in the same fictional universe as RTD's Time War, not unless it's a really stupid, repetitive fictional universe, anyway. And this is totally RTD's fault for not caring less what happened in the novels; still, it's how I see it. There is also the issue that at various points, the NAs and the EDAs do contradict each other quite a lot; as the NAs seem to mesh better with the old and new TV series, this is another point against the canonicity of the EDAs. My best guess, from a fanficcer's point of view, is that Eight's "actual" career in the RTDverse was broadly similar, but not identical, to what happened in the EDAs, but with Daleks instead of Larry Miles's "Enemy" (and probably no Faction Paradox, although they are kind of excellent) and other such differences. So you can choose in your heart of hearts whether you think Romana II really did become Romana III and if she did whether or not she was in fact such a wrong'un.
God, all of the above makes me look like some sort of geeky canon-Nazi, doesn't it? I think about this stuff too hard...
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Post by clocketpatch on Apr 7, 2009 23:06:22 GMT
(basically the author explains in an afterword that he hates the JNT era that much he prefers to believe that everything after Season 17 never really happened)!! One of them *angry* fans eh? ...it's really no wonder the whole "Rose rules Rose Drools" thing got so big and mad and crazy; we Whovians have a wonderful heritage of yelling angry slander and stabbing each other in the back. Yay! ...that said, there are things which I too prefer to believe never happened *cough* second beach scene *cough* Doctor tongue wrestling *cough* ahem. God, all of the above makes me look like some sort of geeky canon-Nazi, doesn't it? I think about this stuff too hard... Geeky? What? You, JJpor, geeky? Nahhh.... ;D ;D ;D it's why we love you.
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Post by Stripes on Apr 8, 2009 3:23:34 GMT
*cough* Doctor tongue wrestling *cough* Hey, if you were Nines compainion and he got all kissy kissy wih you, you would be singing another tune.
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Post by clocketpatch on Apr 8, 2009 4:10:48 GMT
*cough* Doctor tongue wrestling *cough* Hey, if you were Nines compainion and he got all kissy kissy wih you, you would be singing another tune. Ew, no! I don't want to kiss him! I just want to stand by and admire him from afar and swoon a bit. ;D
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Post by magnusgreel on Apr 8, 2009 7:21:53 GMT
God, all of the above makes me look like some sort of geeky canon-Nazi, doesn't it? I think about this stuff too hard... I value the ability to lose oneself in a fictional world intelligently. It shows taste. Why settle for a lackluster reality?
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Post by merrythemad on Apr 8, 2009 11:21:00 GMT
here here! Magnus I may have to incorporate that into my life view!!
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Post by jjpor on Apr 8, 2009 20:10:44 GMT
God, all of the above makes me look like some sort of geeky canon-Nazi, doesn't it? I think about this stuff too hard... Geeky? What? You, JJpor, geeky? Nahhh.... ;D ;D ;D it's why we love you. Awww...you guys... You raise a good point, there, Clocket; what bits of NuWho would you rather never happened? For some reason, I have a vision of Ten waking up in Rose's mum's house on Xmas morning in whatshisname's pyjamas and going "So, it was all a dream!" Maybe that's the surprise RTD has in store for us in the specials... I'm warming to my idea of the RTD-verse TVM-Rose gap being "very similar to but not the same as the Eight novels", because it raises the possibility of (SPOILER!!) Nine losing his memory after blowing up Gallifrey and spending a century living on Earth waiting for the TARDIS to repair itself. Get Eccleston back and we'll shoot it! In fact, get McGann back too and shoot an Eight Adventures spinoff series! Genius! Of course, the EDAs may be the "real" version and the NuWhoniverse the parallel one; I think _some_ people might like that to be true! ;D And thanks Magnus, I think my thoughts on the issue broadly agree with yours; as Merry says, words to live by.
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Post by Stripes on Apr 8, 2009 20:55:20 GMT
Hey, if you were Nines companion and he got all kissy kissy wih you, you would be singing another tune. Ew, no! I don't want to kiss him! I just want to stand by and admire him from afar and swoon a bit. ;D Fair enough. I do think Nine would be a little uncomfortable though.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 3, 2011 20:43:59 GMT
Just came across the most ridiculously cool image of Roger Delgado I've ever seen (don't ask why I was Googling pictures of Roger Delgado...): aikainkauna.tumblr.com/post/2678308984/roger-delgado-always-pimper-than-youIt's the Masterly equivalent of that ridiculous publicity photo of John Levene and Katy Manning on the set of The Daemons, where it looks like Benton is auditioning for The Professionals or something. This was clearly taken during the Master's time spent posing as a dodgy guru in Swinging London - you know, when Mick Jagger and Keith Richards were writing songs about him and stuff... ;D
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Post by clocketpatch on Oct 3, 2011 21:22:44 GMT
That's a great picture, but, uh... I had to scroll down to see it. The first thing I saw clicking on that link was the tumblr title. Oh dear. ;D
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Post by librarylover on Oct 4, 2011 1:35:22 GMT
Just came across the most ridiculously cool image of Roger Delgado I've ever seen (don't ask why I was Googling pictures of Roger Delgado...): aikainkauna.tumblr.com/post/2678308984/roger-delgado-always-pimper-than-youIt's the Masterly equivalent of that ridiculous publicity photo of John Levene and Katy Manning on the set of The Daemons, where it looks like Benton is auditioning for The Professionals or something. This was clearly taken during the Master's time spent posing as a dodgy guru in Swinging London - you know, when Mick Jagger and Keith Richards were writing songs about him and stuff... ;D Great photo of Delgado . . . is it just me, or does he look like a Bond villain in it? He could totally have played Blofeld.
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Post by primsong on Oct 4, 2011 13:49:18 GMT
He does rather look like he should have Bond leaning against the wall behind him, out of focus in a tuxedo of course. The Master is always Delgado in my head, none of the others ever seem to last in my imagination... maybe Delgado!Master is carefully picking them off back in there and claiming it was an accident.
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Post by jjpor on Oct 4, 2011 21:07:24 GMT
That's a great picture, but, uh... I had to scroll down to see it. The first thing I saw clicking on that link was the tumblr title. Oh dear. ;D I think I could maybe adopt the get-out clause used on the BBC website when linking to stuff: "JJPOR is not responsible for the content of external sites". ;D He does indeed have a strong "Ve meet again, Meeester Bond" vibe in that picture. As indeed he does in this spiffing bit of artwork I found shortly after posting the above: subwavenetwork.tumblr.com/post/7384871284/mind-of-evil-by-harnois75
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Post by clocketpatch on Oct 4, 2011 21:25:03 GMT
That is some GORGEOUS Master art right there. I'm wondering how they did the green shading... I think that link disclaimers only work if they're present at the original posting of the link.
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