The Official Valeyard Thread

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((Spoilers for Season 23 contained below.))

Because he deserves it, that's why. The Valeyard is one of my all-time favorite characters in Doctor Who and is, without a doubt, my favorite concept. And it was played marvelously by Michael Jayston.

For those of you who don't know, The Valeyard appeared in Season 23, the season-long episode (basically) 'Trail of a Time Lord.' He starts out as a Time Lord who is acting as prosecutor in the Sixth Doctor's trail, but in the last episode, the Ultimate Foe, we find out that he is, in fact, the DOCTOR!!! (Whoa. Crazy, right?) Or, specifically, an amalgamation of all the evil inside the Doctor, created sometime between his 12th and 13th incarnation.

The few books that touch on him do so flawlessly, too. Especially the ones dealing with Six's regeneration and giving a much better reason for it than he 'bumped his head.' In the books they offer two reasons; one is that Seven caused the regeneration in a Watcher-like fashion (it's confusing if you haven't read the book) and the other (which I go by) is that Six could feel himself becoming the Valeyard and 'let himself die,' basically committing suicide. These are a lot darker but I think they are more fun.

((Okay, you've got free reign to say what you want, but it'll just make my day if you could refrain from bringing up the Dream Lord. Michael Jayston is the only Valeyard I need. And it's the only one getting celebrated in this thread.))

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Now, for me, this was just awesome. I watched "Trail of a Time Lord" without any previous knowledge of old Vale here, so I was completely caught off guard by that revelation. Doctor Who can't usually surprise me that much, so I loved it. Also, I just plain loved the Valeyard. He was cruel and crafty and extremely cunning, and he had that calm, arrogant demeanor that just makes a great villain. But he also had a sarcastic side and a clear temper and I just really enjoyed watching him lose it from time to time. The scene in the Matrix where he's flashing around was really cool.

But finding out that he was the Doctor just made this guy the best. It's an idea I loved and one with a lot of potential. We really don't know a whole lot about this guy; how he was created, why, how long he's been around. Nothing. In fact, what we do know comes from The Master, and he's not exactly a credible source. All we really know is that the Doctor has the potential to become him. It's an new element of the Doctor that I really enjoyed.

I'm also one of those fans who considers the Valeyard the 13th Doctor. I find it completely believable that he lied to the Master or that the Master lied, and since at least one book agrees with this idea, I consider it canon. (That's just my canon, not saying it's absolute.) The Valeyard makes a great Doctor and the idea that he's the inevitable 13 is amazingly chilling. I could see some of Vale in Six, Seven, Eight, Nine, and especially Ten. He's there and he's getting bigger, and I love seeing that coming. I'm not sure they WILL bring him back, but they should and if they do, it'll be awesome. Seeing the 13th Doctor slowly becoming the Valeyard is just a lovely visual. There's potential there for so many wonderful stories and roleplay ideas.

And also, for anyone who loves the Vale, you really need to listen to the audio 'He Jests at Scars...' It actually has Michael Jayston as the Valeyard and deals with the 'what if' scenario of 'if the Valeyard had beaten Six and gotten is remaining lives.' It's dark and intriguing and gives us a phenomenal performance from Mel, not much more bitter and cold. The ending is just chilling. And, if nothing else, you get to enjoy listening to Michael Jayston for about 2 hours, so that's great. = )

((And yes, I am starting to realize that my threads are more 'what I think about this person,' but it's open to discussion and I provide picspam, so I think it still counts. = ) ))

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Picspam!!!

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Was I the only was a little frightened by the idea that The Valeyard is still on Gallifrey when The Trial ends? I mean, they've never touched on that again, which is a little sad, but I keep expecting them to (or wanting them to.) I mean, he was not only on Gallifrey by pretending to be The Keeper. (Which reflects rather badly on the Time Lords, doesn't it? I mean, not only did they not recognize him as the Valeyard when we did, but they didn't even notice The Keeper was missing. Not a very friendly lot, are they, if they don't even know what each other looks like? = ) )

Anyway, I just always thought that was a cool idea, because it tainted every episode thereafter for me. I just kept being like 'Who cares about Daleks? The Valeyard is still on Gallifrey! Go do something.' Which he never did. I just keep waiting for them to mention him being there during the Time War. I think that would be awesome. Maybe he blew up Gallifrey. It would still be the Doctor, ya know? Heh. That would be a neat idea. I shall tinker with it.

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Ignore this bit, it isn't for the thread. I'm just putting it here for a little bit so I remember to finish reading it tomorrow. I'll delete it after I get back on my computer and can save it.

roswell.fortunecity.com/angelic/96/controvs.htm

[jjpor]

Yeah, I like to think that he definitely was involved in the Time War in some capacity - maybe he was behind the whole Unexpected Rassilon incident... I also like Merry's theory that the Valeyard is somehow Handy!Ten - I know it doesn't exactly match up with what was (vaguely) stated in the TV story, but it is nevertheless a very cool concept. To me anyway. There's probably also a connection to the Dream Lord from Amy's choice, I'd say.

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I'm wondering if he'll pop up next series; if he is the Dream Lord. I mean, if we're counting Handy, then Eleven is really -technically speaking- twelve, innit he? And the Valyard is supposed to pop up somewhere between Twelve and the Last right? Just putting it out there...

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Did no read the 'please don't mention the Dream Lord, this is a Jayston tribute thread'' bit?... Oh, well. Have fun with it.

Yeah, I've always figured he was involved in the Time War. It could work with that idea you mentioned about the Time Lords pulling in other versions of the Doctor. They might have called on him to help once things got really bad.

I didn't know people consider Handy an actual number? Where did that idea come from? There isn't any basis for that, is there? Did I miss something? Then again, I guess he is sort of a half-regeneration... Well, that would be weird. I'd hate to think we lost a Doctor. = (

[jjpor]

Well, they were stupid enough to ask the Master for help, so...

But I don't count Handy as a number. No, he's just an aberration, if you ask me. And I don't think the twelve regenerations rule will be important when it comes right down to it - if the show is still viable when it comes to that point I think only the most hardened self-hating fanboys would rather the show ended in order to comply with 35-year-old "canon" rather than having some elegant handwave so it can carry on (after milking the moment for the drama, obviously).

Although I bet there'd be some... ;D

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Exactly. If they'd ask the Master, they ask anybody. I'm half-surprised they didn't bring back Morbius. Heck, maybe they did. Who knows.

Same here. I still just consider Handy 10.1 or something. I figure if he looked exactly like the other Doctor, then he isn't really a new version all to himself. Then again, the books have established that the Master regenerated as Delgado several times, but I think we've clearly laid out that it's different for the Doctor. Plus, it's not the same body. It was a total new entity. So, yeah, I don't really think so.

And yeah, I'm actually looking forward to that. Not to see the Doctor die, but to see the drama of 'oh, no, last life now' and then to see what cleverness they pull out to save him. I'm sure it'll be something. I don't see Doctor Who being canceled at the moment, but things might change. You never know. I'm really kind of excited about the potential there, though. It would be interesting to see a Doctor on his last life, where he actually has to be super careful because if he dies, he's dead for real. And there's be the whole 'Master potential' going on with the whole 'will the Doctor go the Master's route and try to save himself' bit.

[jjpor]

Yeah. I do think though that, given the way things have gone with Who over the years, even if New Who were cancelled (as it inevitably will be at some point, let's be honest) it would be a massively jerkish thing to do to actually kill the Doctor off. In fact, I might go as far to say that an epic walking-off-into-the-sunset moment at the end of the last story a la Survival would be just about the only way of ending it that would be acceptable to me. And I mean that in an unsmiling, fanboyish woe-unto-the-showrunner-who-defies-my-will sort of way. ;D

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Sept 27, 2010 19:02:57 GMT jjpor said:

In fact, I might go as far to say that an epic walking-off-into-the-sunset moment at the end of the last story a la Survival would be just about the only way of ending it that would be acceptable to me. And I mean that in an unsmiling, fanboyish woe-unto-the-showrunner-who-defies-my-will sort of way. ;D

You might not be alone in that...

Though, I must say, that the last series finale would've worked as a perfect show-ender... in fact, I pretty much started bawling BECAUSE it would've been such a perfect ending I couldn't see how it wouldn't be (does that even make sense?). I mean... to erase the character and bring things full circle so that the universe he saves is actually our universe (because the Whoniverse is most assuredly not our universe, but with no Doctor, with no Doctor-inspired events? ...maybe) some kind of poetry there anyway, and Eleven had such a perfect send off speach, remembering the days the never were.

Of course, killing off the character without any fanfare, just having him fall down a hole or get executed by the Time Lords (whichw as supposed to happen at the end of Trial of a Time Lord btw) would be... sort of dickish.

When something's managed to survive so long you've got to give it a bit of respect and make any endings worth-while.



(of course, even if the Doctor did die for good and the showrunner closed it down, twenty years down the line you just KNOW someone will ressurect the show, and the Doctor, with magical rings and DNA transference or something...)

[jjpor]

Well, you know because I keep gushing about it in an unseemly cringeworthy sort of way ;D that I loved the whole extended end scene(s) of The Big Bang. I thought it was epic and emotional and just plain enjoyable in a way that the overegged finales of New Who series past just haven't been for me, really. So yeah, I'd agree that if the Doctor did have to die, he could die like that and it would be very sad but also extremely dramatic and moving and all those other things good drama should be.

I suppose my objection to the Doctor dying isn't really based on drama or storytelling considerations but more that it would be an astonishingly, as you say dickish, move for any one showrunner to think that he or she was entitled to finally end Who, for good. I know what you're saying, if the conditions and the inspiration was ever there for a Who Mark 3 in twenty years time, they could handwave his comeback like they do with the Master every time, or just have it be a *gasp* reboot, but I dunno, I just think it'd be classier for whoever is in charge by then to acknowledge that it's got to the point where no one writer or producer is bigger than the thing that is Who, and keep it as one long, twisty turny continuity...

Yeah, I know this is nothing I haven't said before, and moreover has nothing to do with the Valeyard, but... ;D

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Ah, it's all good. The Valeyard is the Doctor after all, so technically we're still on pace.

Anyway, I agree on both counts. I wasn't a huge fan of The Big Bang. I liked it a lot, but I thought it was just a little disappointing after all the hype. With less hype, I probably would have thought it was wonderful. Regardless, I would have liked the tie in to our universe. It might have been funny if they'd showed some last scene with a bunch of fans at a Doctor Who convention, like all that's left over from the Doctor is this vague, memory that made itself into a show. I would have giggled at that.

But I think I agree more with JJ. An ending similar to Seven's would have been great. I really think that Seven's ending, especially his last lines, was the only way to end the show. It was beautiful, simple, and eloquent. I just loved it. I can't really see Doctor Who ending any other way.

On another point, Doctor Who wasn't supposed to end with the Doctor's death at the end of Trail. Eric Saward (one of my favorite script editor's) wrote it so that the season (not the series) would end on a cliffhanger, with the Doctor and the Valeyard falling into a Time Vent as they fought to the death. It wouldn't say if the Doctor died or not and it wasn't intended to be the final episode, if anything, he hoped the cliffhanger would encourage a return season. It had the possibility of being the final one, but they didn't want it to be so they didn't write it to be. The main reason that version wasn't used was because Nathan-Turner didn't want the show to end on such a downbeat point, if it got canceled, but it wasn't written expecting to be canceled.

[jjpor]

Yeah, I think the Big Bang did suffer from all of the fannish feverish theorising and anticipation running throughout S5 (I speak as someone who did their fair share of such theorising) - nothing was going to live up to all of the intricate theories and "clues" and so forth people were identifying. Still, it looks like some of the stuff that was left unexplained is going to be returned to in S6. And I do think the ending - the Doctor's final words to big Amy and little Amelia and then the whole "something borrowed" bit were just fantastic, on a dramatic and emotional level anyway - RTD wishes all that business on the beach at the end of Journey's End was half as affecting (or so I like to think! ;D).

But the ending of Survival - yeah, gets me every time. If old Who had to end, that's the absolute best way they could have ended it, I strongly believe. Always another adventure in time and space - somewhere the tea's getting cold. Yeah. May New Who end as well when the time comes.

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I loved that 'borrowed' bit. That was just epic. And any scene with River, much to my surprise. And the fez was fun. I think the one scene I really didn't like was the one with all the baddies teaming up to come stop the Doctor. Daleks don't team up. I mean, sure, the old ones would team up with the Master, but that was one time and they were a lot different then. They've gotten even more 'we are supreme, don't even touch us, we are too better than you,' so I didn't find that at all realistic. Plus, Draconians are one of my favorite races, second only to Cybermen. And of course, Gallifreyans. = ) I was so disappointed when they mentioned them and never showed them! = (

Indeed. Which only makes it all the more awesome to know that Andrew Cartmel wrote that in about two minutes by scribbling it on the back of a napkin. I can't wait until I go to TimeGate. That's going to be the first thing I ask him about. That's one of the most famous lines of Doctor Who it was written in two minutes... on the back of a NAPKIN. Just epic. = )

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Oct 1, 2010 3:57:11 GMT reversethepolarity said:

I think the one scene I really didn't like was the one with all the baddies teaming up to come stop the Doctor. Daleks don't team up. I mean, sure, the old ones would team up with the Master, but that was one time and they were a lot different then. They've gotten even more 'we are supreme, don't even touch us, we are too better than you,' so I didn't find that at all realistic.

Agreed, so much. I love the episode but I can't rewatch that bit without cringing. And the slow-mo. And everything, arghh... But I like the delicious irony of it and the look on the Doctor's face. It's like the right ending of I am Legend where you figure out that you were wrong about the hero the whole time (except, the Doctor is still the hero). Daleks can plan and work with other species I think... it's been shown before... but it always ends badly for the other species. If the universe hadn't ended I don't think that alliance would've lasted very long. For that one moment though, I justify it as the Dalek's primary urge for preserving the race.

Oct 1, 2010 3:57:11 GMT reversethepolarity said:

Indeed. Which only makes it all the more awesome to know that Andrew Cartmel wrote that in about two minutes by scribbling it on the back of a napkin. I can't wait until I go to TimeGate. That's going to be the first thing I ask him about. That's one of the most famous lines of Doctor Who it was written in two minutes... on the back of a NAPKIN. Just epic. = )

Are you talking about the voice-over lines at the end of Survival? Ah ha, I -love- Who sometimes. You know, back of a napkin just makes it even more appropriate.

[jjpor]

I do find the notion of everyone teaming up like that a little bit dubious, but it was worth it for the payoff when Eleven realises how badly he's misread the situation (it also absolves the cringe-making Doctor shouting at them all from the centre of Stonehenge scene earlier, which becomes bitterly comic in light of the ending of the episode).

Yes, well sometimes people come up with their best work on the back of a napkin in too minutes. Be sure to pass on my general admiration etc if you actually meet the bloke! ;D

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You know, this actually makes me want to see that Alliance work. I'd love to read a fic where the Doctor goes into the future and the Galactic Federation had been replaced by the Alliance, an actually good and functioning organization led by the Daleks, Cybermen, and Sontarans. I would read that. Just for kicks.

And yes, the lines at the end of Survival were written on a napkin. I just love the crew of Who. Only they could make something so epic and write it on a napkin. Or someone make monsters out of cardboard and Styrofoam actually be scary. This is why we love Doctor Who. It's full of awesome people who are only made more awesome on a low budget and little time.

And I will, JJ. I'll take a bunch of pictures, too. I'm actually gonna be on a panel with him, too. With him and Sophie Aldred. You guys need to come to TimeGate! Ben Aaronovitch is going to be there too.

[jjpor]

That's a pretty cool idea, actually. Hmm, yeah. I suppose the most interesting part would be finding a way for an alliance whose main members are kind of preprogrammed to betray/try to exterminate each other to actually work...

Nah, the Daleks would just try and kill everybody else sooner or later, wouldn't they? ;D

Yes, oldschool Who is one of the occasions where "less is more" is actually true...

You're a very lucky person going to that. If you get to speak to Aaronovitch, tell him that Battlefield is far better than he thinks it is. ;D