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Post by librarylover on Jul 26, 2009 21:35:56 GMT
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Post by jjpor on Jul 27, 2009 20:04:19 GMT
I think with Children of Earth being the success it has been, it'd be surprising if they didn't do more, but from a story and an artistic point of view, I just don't see how they can top that. I mean, obviously, they could, but it'd be a big ask; going back to the sort of stories we had in the first two seasons would, I'd argue, be a step back and a waste of everybody's time.
Gotta shake your head at some of the comments in response to that article, though, don't you? Sometimes I think some fans don't deserve to have good television programs made for them. Surely, whether or not it's a good story comes before whatever ship a given chunk of fandom happens to be in love with - doesn't it?
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Post by wanderlust on Jul 30, 2009 8:48:50 GMT
I'm probably in a very small minority, but I actually hated CoE. It left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
I suppose I'm somewhat tainted by my American culture, full of people wanting to take on the world for their needs (and most of them seem to have a gun hidden under their bed (or is that just Texas?)), but I couldn't understand why nobody even considered - for a second, at least - of fighting the 456. All they could think of was giving in, and how horrible is that?
I guess I felt there were no real heroes, and while TW has always been dark, there was always some sort of redeeming factor there, but I couldn't find one with this. Kinda felt depressed about humanity, actually.
Though, as a sidenote, while watching, my mom kept turning to me and asking when the Doctor was gonna show up, lol. I suppose he was saving another planet for once, hehe.
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Post by merrythemad on Jul 30, 2009 13:43:06 GMT
I agree with most of you are saying, Wanderlust, but I think there were heroes, Rhys, for one, who could have gone home and waited to die and Ianto's family for another. I bet there were smalll pockets of resistance everywhere, but they lacked both the big picture and the ability to launch a alien counter assault.
As for the doctor not showing up, it did bother me, it seems very out of the universe's character, better to have not mentioned him ever than mention him flaunting the fact his absence is wrong (which i have kvetched about many times in this thread- I just thing the same universe must follow the same rules, now it seems ten only comes rushing to earth when he needs a scantily clad young female companion (yes that was an exaggeration but still the point remains).
all in all, it was a very powerful story they told, and even if taken as nothing so much as warning, i did enjoy it. as for where they go from here? Well, RTD is involved so I expect lost of angst, flashbacks, sorrowful main characteres, and giant finales that make little to no sense.
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Post by jjpor on Jul 30, 2009 21:16:45 GMT
I do see Wanderlust's point actually; the story did present a pretty uncompromisingly bleak view of human nature, really, and seemed to be suggesting that in the face of government corruption/oppression acts of outright heroism are pretty pointless. I don't know if that's what was intended or not, but that seemed to be what came across.
As Merry says, though, there were acts of quiet heroism, from the little people. Ianto's family members, for example, and I did quietly cheer at PC Andy when he decided he wasn't supporting The Man any more...
A couple of points:
*I really don't know what RTD intended by implying that the school league table woman was poised to take over as PM at the end, because that suggestion of hers alone was enough to paint her, for me, as one of the blackest of a bunch of pretty black villains in this story. Were we supposed to cheer because Green was getting his comeuppance, because I totally was not, his replacement being maybe even worse, or was RTD trying to make a point about all politicians being as bad as each other and the scum always floating to the top?
And, as morally reprehensible as it may be, I think HM Government could have driven a harder bargain with the 456 had they not fallen for that transparent kill-everyone-in-the-MI5-building negotiating tactic. I mean, if they needed earth children as a drug, they weren't really going to wipe out their supply by genociding the human race, were they? Of course, any deal done with them would be a mug's game, because once they'd used up the 10% they'd only be back for more.*
And yeah, the Doctor's non-intervention, while necessary to the story, represents a major plothole. I still think they should have just not mentioned it and hoped for the best, instead of trying to preempt the nitpicking fanboys on the forums.
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Post by wanderlust on Jul 31, 2009 6:07:15 GMT
Ah, well, true, about the heroism. There were small pockets of it. Mostly what I mean't, though, was the heroes of the story (Torchwood) didn't seem to do much. I know Gwen did at the end but Jack......kinda did nothing through the story but die five times and then do something very sad. I did like Rhys (who previously I haven't liked in the series) and PC Andy. Oh, and Ianto's brother in-law rallying the troops.
*Another thing that bothered me about this is that I don't think any of the characters seemed to look at this from a logical POV. Like jjpor said, were the 456 really going to wipe out the human race when they needed the children? And also, notice this was their second return and how the number of children wanted jumped up dramatically. What's to stop them from coming back and wanting even more? In addition to that, it seems almost counter productive to try to protect the human race by giving away the next generation. I know it wasn't all the children, and as witnessed by Gwen's pregnancy, there will always be more on the way, but even so; if just didn't seem to make much sense. That occured to me.*
As for the Doctor's mention, to be quite honest with you, when Gwen was saying it, I felt the same way. As I said, the story didn't make me feel too great about humans in general, so I could see her point and the emotion behind the words. In hindsight though, the comment wasn't very fitting. I don't think I could ever see the Doctor looking away in shame, I think he would always be there, fighting the good fight and doing what he could to help.
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Post by jjpor on Jul 31, 2009 22:13:16 GMT
Yeah, I did get that impression; that if people had taken a moment to step back and actually think about the problem facing them in a logical way, then they could have come up with better solutions. On the other hand, I think that was in part RTD's point - the idea that when people sit down and start making a point of making "hard decisions" etc, often they end up with a kind of fake ruthlessness, a sort of bloodthirsty wishful thinking that doesn't really help anybody and only serves to ante up the level of violence and brutality in the situation. Someone who was more media-studies-savvy than me might say it was RTD's commentary on the UK government's anti-terrorism policy or something, but I fear that may be a bit of a stretch! ;D
But yeah, and speaking as someone who actually liked the story rather a lot, Jack and Ianto etc's big plan for dealing with the situation did seem like an anticlimax when actually put into effect. Again, though, I think that bleakness was deliberate on the writers' part.
And continue to agree with you totally on the Doctor issue - not only would the Doctor have intervened, he would have _won_, but then that would have undercut the whole basis of the story. As I say, probably best to have just not mentioned him and hope nobody noticed.
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Post by magnusgreel on Nov 2, 2012 0:55:24 GMT
No one's commented on Miracle Day, have they?
I've just watched all of TW for the first time, then s2 and 3 a second time, starting 4 again. Hearing how many people here dislike TW and why is putting me out of the mood to comment-- I had a bit of a bad taste in my mouth with s1 at first, but that was mostly ep #2, where the sex stuff did seem forced and shoehorned-in, and besides this, it's got to have been the least sexy "sexy episode" of any series, that I've ever seen. No points for stealing that camera effect used while the creature's walking through the streets of Cardiff, looking at sex in street ads-- copied straight from Scorcese's "Mean Streets" (there it was Harvey Keitel I think).
Any major problems I had with TW were dispelled very soon. Better SF premises would have been nice, and less avoidance of showing aliens. This rift is supposed to bring us into contact with the rest of the universe, yet you'd almost never know it. I do have a problem with sex and gunplay shoved in for its own sake, but I'm surprised that that's the general feeling about TW. They didn't seem to go over that line, to me.
Children of Time: My first, biggest impression is that it is like a modern Quatermass story. They actually allowed all the time needed to build up the dread and credibility of the threat, and the alien-ness of it. My "favorite" may have been Decker. He's a really believable, three-dimensional weasel. I mean, you sense him thinking awful, complex things behind that smirk.
A harsh world view doesn't bother me... what seems far-fetched, though, is how fast every world government got together and organized this, with none protesting. At the very least, a few should have been slow to catch up with the new situation.
If we can't blame Jack for his grandson, then I guess to be consistent, we can't blame governments for handing over 10%. Only I do. You'd think someone besides Jack would have said "NO", and that whoever that person was, she/he would have said it knowing slaughter was going to be triggered off by it. Some people would have said, let's face possible annihilation from plague as one people, rather than sacrificing innocents. Jack, though, almost acted as if he didn't think there would be consequences. No kids! Get off this planet! Oh you're going to kill everyone starting with Ianto? No PLEASE no!! I didn't mean it!! It's easy for the one guy on the planet who can't die to talk tough, isn't it....
I feel awful. That's enough for now.
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Post by aquabluejay on Nov 2, 2012 2:44:16 GMT
Yes I felt largely the same as far as what's wrong with many episodes of Torchwood.
You have to watch mericle day. Ird dark to and has its problems but it's really good. Also filled with many funny comparisons about Americanisms vs British expressions.
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