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Post by clocketpatch on Aug 12, 2008 19:50:45 GMT
Which brings us (not very smoothly) to the next question:
Who would win in a knife fight: Jamie or Leela?
Alas, that is truthy truth
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Post by Kit on Aug 12, 2008 19:59:27 GMT
I would say Leela, 'cos she'd sneak some Janus Thorns in, but I really haven't seen enough of Jamie to make an accurate choice.
xD This is like Pirates vs Ninjas, Doctor Who style!
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Post by jjpor on Aug 12, 2008 20:01:36 GMT
Who would win in a knife fight: Jamie or Leela? Jamie would probably hesitate - fatally - at the thought of stabbing a girl, and then Leela would nail him. Okay, with Simm!Master and the Sea Devils in mind; who would win in a fight: Clangers or Teletubbies? I'm not sure myself, but it would be one trippy, surreal fight.
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Post by clocketpatch on Aug 12, 2008 20:27:31 GMT
xD This is like Pirates vs Ninjas, Doctor Who style! It so, so is. I think I agree with the Leela assessment. For Clangers v. TellyTubbies... well, I've never seen the Clangers so I'm gonna put my vote with the Tubbies simply because there's something evil and unnatural about them. They'd probably use, like, tubby witchcraft or something.. I'm also not entirely convinced that their random bunnies aren't the same breed as that rabbit in the Hold Grail
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Post by Kit on Aug 12, 2008 21:29:06 GMT
o.o I think this may have gone too far...
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Post by magnusgreel on Aug 13, 2008 9:26:29 GMT
Would "Clangers" be what Delgado watched in his cell in Sea Devils?
5 Doctors: I think that "thing" Four was caught in was just some temporally sophisticated trick to convince the Time Lords (rebellious ones or not) that he wasn't "at home".
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Post by jjpor on Aug 13, 2008 19:12:37 GMT
Would "Clangers" be what Delgado watched in his cell in Sea Devils? Yeah - it's psychedelic weirdness about a load of pink knitted mice who live on the moon. They were still repeating it on Brit TV when I was a nipper, and apparently as a toddler I found it as fascinating as the Master seems to. Agreed on Four and his means of ducking out of multi-Doctor reunions. So, to return to the Sea Devils, I suppose it's a reiteration of some of the themes that seem to run through a lot of Pertwee-era stories; the Master stirring up a situation that he ends up having no control over; the idea that humans, despite the Doctor's apparent fondness for them, may be the greatest monsters of all; aliens (not that Sea Devils are, technically speaking, aliens) whom we might have been able to live in peace with were it not for our innate bloodthirstiness (and the Master stirring things up, of course); and the idea that, aliens apart, this planet we live on could come back and bite us if we don't treat it with some respect. I suppose that in this sense, early-70s Who very much reflects its times, when things like environmentalism were really starting to make themselves felt.
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Post by magnusgreel on Aug 13, 2008 21:38:54 GMT
I almost credit Barry Letts with "creating" Doctor Who now, since I have recently heard that he was responsible for much of the point of view of the Doctor that we take for granted now, including environmentalism, questioning of (or outright contempt for) authority, etc.. Without all that, the Dr would just have been some sciency uncle or interstellar children's tourguide, possibly.
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Post by jjpor on Aug 13, 2008 22:25:12 GMT
IWithout all that, the Dr would just have been some sciency uncle or interstellar children's tourguide, possibly. And isn't it this worldview that sets Doctor Who apart and makes it great? The humanistic values, the at times almost subversive attitude to authority, the compassionate, pacifistic ideals that the Doctor represents even if he doesn't always live up to them? And I'd agree it was probably during the years Letts was producing that these became integral to the show.
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Post by magnusgreel on Aug 14, 2008 10:02:13 GMT
Exactly. Thank you. No one seems to bring any of this up. If you ask someone what she/he likes about DW, he/she will usually just list vague everyday "entertainment" reasons... it's "exciting", they like Tom's scarf, K9's adorable, etc.. It's very alienating. It makes me wonder if all the vaguely counter-cultural attitudes in 70s DW have died out so completely that they're only perceptible to me. You can tell they're in RTD's mindset though, somewhere.
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Post by clocketpatch on Aug 14, 2008 15:03:23 GMT
I'm going to jump into this discussion now. I've always figured its the anthropologist in me that likes Who. I started watching it just for the random zaniness. I keep watching it because I find the history fasinating. When you watch the old stuff you can see the changing fashions and world views and current politics and I find that all very, very cool.
I also like laughing at the bad special effects.
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Post by Kit on Aug 14, 2008 15:31:17 GMT
I don't even know why I watch it. I was never fond of sci fi, and this is the only sci fi show I actually watch. I suppose I like the whole time machine thing, 'cos I'd love to travel in time. And the characters, I suppose. And the fact that I haven't seen all of it makes me keep going, 'cos there's always (or at least for a very very long time) going to be something left to see.
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Post by jjpor on Aug 14, 2008 20:00:15 GMT
I sort of fall between the two stools, so to speak; I like Who for the stories, for the characters, all of that, but I don't think you can watch it, and appreciate it, and not have some of its ideals rub off on you, even if you're not consciously aware of it.
Trek fans talk a lot about the ideals of Trek; the ideals of Trek seem to me to be a world of bland, politically-correct conformity with a worrying militaristic edge, where everyone is free to be whatever they want to be as long as they want to be just like everyone else in the Federation. The Doctor would hate the Federation - no, he wouldn't hate them, he'd feel sorry for them. He'd topple their entire system in a single night, for their own good.
The Doctor stands for being different, for standing out from the crowd and not obeying anybody else's rules, but also for respecting other people's right to do the same. The Doctor's worst enemies are all ones who want to make everybody like them (the Cybermen), wipe out those who are not like them (the Daleks), tell other people what to do (the Master). The Doctor is one of precious few "good guys" in science fiction, or popular culture for that matter, who actually is a good guy, who tries to help his enemies before trying to destroy them, who uses violence only as a last resort, but always regrets it afterwards.
And the good thing about these values is that, by now, they have become completely ingrained and subsumed in the character; if the Doctor didn't behave like this, then to us he wouldn't be the Doctor. As I say, I don't think you can like Who - really like it, as a more than casual viewer - and not take some of these ideals on board, even unconsciously. Which is another good thing about Who being as popular as it is right now, because this way of looking at the world is still very much part of the show, however much us old-schoolers like to quibble about story-telling choices, and quite frankly, children and young people could be exposed to much worse ways of looking at the world and each other than the ones the Doctor offers.
Ahem. I got quite passionate there, didn't I?
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Post by clocketpatch on Aug 14, 2008 20:19:05 GMT
It was a good kind of passionate, and I agree. Much as I sometimes quibble or complain it's a good show with good values
(I think the same about the SJA... not so sure about TW but let's not get into that)
What you said about Trek, hmmm, that there might jut be why I never got into that fandom, though I did watch it as a child. I really liked Data for some reason...
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Post by jjpor on Aug 14, 2008 21:52:03 GMT
(I think the same about the SJA... not so sure about TW but let's not get into that) Torchwood is...Right, when I was about 12, I used to write Doctor Who stories, but I wanted to make them all grownup and kewl and badass and all the things 12-year-olds want their stories to be. The end result, with all of its sex and violence and blood and weaponry and pointless cruelty was a lot like your average episode of Torchwood. Unlike Doctor Who, Torchwood has, I think I can say, absolutely no redeeming features whatsoever. It is a widely-read 12-year-old's idea of adult storytelling. I say this, you understand, as someone who, despite supposedly knowing better, has watched more than a few episodes of Torchwood and derived entertainment value from them; I even wrote the fanfic, for God's sake. I suppose I can sum up the difference thus; I've never felt ashamed of watching Doctor Who
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Post by clocketpatch on Aug 14, 2008 22:34:39 GMT
Agreed! I watched a few episodes of the first season, but have straight off refused to watch any of the second. I've been told that the quality improves, but, even if it does, that doesn't fix the fact that <i>something</i> at the very heart of that program is just incredibly flawed. I think it might be the way it keeps trying to market itself to children while insisting that it is adult. It also irks me how RTD keeps going on about how it's a way to explore 'complex' and 'mature' issues which can't be touched on in DW. Since when is DW unable to deal with complex issues??? Um... isn't that like the shows whole point??? (asside from that time and space thing) That said, I really enjoyed the Random Shoes episode in the first season, but that was actually a good story which relied on plot rather than random sex and violence. and, um... because this is getting off-topic again... REVERSE THE POLARITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of the neutron flow
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Post by jjpor on Aug 15, 2008 20:22:29 GMT
REVERSE THE POLARITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of the neutron flowAnd of course, this is the only Three story where he actually uses the immortal phrase in full (although I think he says it again in The Five Doctors, but that doesn't count). Who would have thought you could use a sonic screwdriver to set off landmines? (although, at times it seems that the sonic screwdriver can do just about anything, apart from driving screws) Actually, blowing up Sea Devils with landmines may go against some of the stuff about compassion and pacifism that I was banging on about above...Still, he always was a bit that way inclined, Three was.
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Post by Kit on Aug 15, 2008 20:42:04 GMT
I think Four may have used the sonic screwdriver as an actual screwdriver once...
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Post by jjpor on Aug 15, 2008 20:54:44 GMT
I think Four may have used the sonic screwdriver as an actual screwdriver once... Typical Four, always has to be different... :-)
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Post by primsong on Jan 20, 2009 20:19:05 GMT
Starbells bought me the dvd for Sea Devils! I have it. I do, I do!
She was going to put it with my plushie!Three (who is dressed appropriately), but it was late in arriving... *boing boing boing*
The sound track is just as bad as I remember - maybe even worse - but I'm thoroughly enjoying all this lovely Three-Jo teamwork, dashing about in the open air instead of corridors and the charmingly devious Delgado again. What's there not to love here? Boats, motorbikes, hovercraft, sword fight, somersaults over wire, rubber-headed bad guys, sandwiches!
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