It was in every way implied...

[lostspook]

Pairing vs Pairing made me think about what a random place the Whoniverse is in terms of shippiness and how few even of our favourite pairings are absolutely stated as such in canon.

Therefore I attempted to make a list of those that seem to have actual stated backing in canon. I'm not sure I like the list much at all, but I love the random & the reverse of the coin, which is in, in that case, why not anybody/anybody if the fit takes you?

I was thinking also of whatever Marianne's line is in Sens & Sensibility concering Willoughby and their understanding (or lack of it): "It was every day implied but never said." (I paraphrase). That's Classic Who all over, you see. Here are the ones I think were actually said to some degree or other:

Doctor
1. Doctor/Mrs Who (Even though she's non-existent, there seems to be far more in canon to support Susan being the Doctor's granddaughter in the usual sense than otherwise).
2. One/Cameca (He may be using her, but he gets engaged and it seems to be a genuine romance, scriptwise)
3. Doctor/Sarah (In the original series, even when Three is flirting, Four is very close, and sends her a K9, it's not stated, but New Who doesn't leave much unsaid, and the relationship doesn't seem to be portrayed as one-sided)
4. Eight/Grace (She might kill him, but he kisses her three times.)
5. Doctor/Rose (Yep. There's not much getting around it, according to New Who canon. Of course, in fandom... :lol:)
6. Ten/Christina (They kiss. Or I thought they did. I can't even remember now.)
7. Ten/Elizabeth I
8. Doctor /River (I query this, because everything we've had so far seems like a Great Big Tease to me and I reserve the right to remain sceptical, but I remembered Amy teasing the Doctor about a romance, so therefore it has script backing and I included it).

Also:
Martha/Ten (One-sided, but definitely a romance at her end, and there's a kiss)
Jack/Ten. (Jack is romantic about everyone).

And notes: Four/Romana (I make that the same as Ian/Barbara as it's down to a general overall how-it's-written and played, but there's a lot of Romana II's run I haven't seen, so correct me here if there's something stated on-screen). Three/Jo (Yes, there's The Green Death, but it's open to interpretation). Widening into Big Finish, Eight says the Doctor's only "I love you" that I know of to Charley, but that's a highly complicated thing, as Scherzo proves. Or possibly very simple. So they don't get in, either.

Companions
1. Ben/Polly (Never stated, but as they meet in a nightclub, chat each other up and ask each other out on a date, I think there's definitely script-led evidence of them at least fancying each other).
2. Jamie/Victoria (The plot of Evil of the Daleks has a whole section that rests on the fact that Jamie is bound to fancy Victoria.)
3. Jo/Mike Yates (we know they planned at least one date)
4. Mickey/Rose
5/ Jack/Rose (and Jack/Everyone, generally, but we all knew that)
6. Mickey/Martha (Yeah, isn't it random?)
7. Amy/Rory

If we count Big Finish, then Hex has a crush on Ace. (No, Hex! Don't do it! :lol:)

Notes:
Ian/Barbara - I was tempted to count the ending of The Chase as proper evidence, but... "It was every day implied..." I think applies to these two more than anyone!

Isn't it bizarre? Have I missed anyone obvious?

I'm tempted by the category of Companion/Other, but that would need serious study to sort out the complexities. Suffice it to say that if you wish to pick up a companion, be handy with a fish or a toadstool... Or, you know, just be handy at the right moment.

(I'd like to add that I'm trying to be objective here - if I were to go onto which pairings I think there is some/ onscreen justification for, the listing would be different. And just so people know, if they don't already, I'm very fond of: Ian/Barbara, Ben/Polly, Brig/Liz, Harry/Sarah, Four/Romana I, Five/Tegan, Leela/Any Passing Hapless Male and any really random pairings that are well done. So, yeah, the above is technically my opinion, but not my favourite ships, yeerk.)

[johne]

Oct 9, 2010 8:14:33 GMT lostspook said:

3. Doctor/Sarah (In the original series, even when Three is flirting, Four is very close, and sends her a K9, it's not stated, but New Who doesn't leave much unsaid, and the relationship doesn't seem to be portrayed as one-sided)

There is at least one exchange in School Reunion implying that whatever the Doctor's relationship with Sarah was, it wasn't on the same level as Doctor/Rose. Or so say the shippers.

Rose: You just leave us behind! Is that what you're going to do to me?
Doctor: No. Not you.

(Of course, in the end, he does just that... never trust forward-looking statements from the Doctor).

5. Doctor/Rose (Yep. There's not much getting around it, according to New Who canon. Of course, in fandom... :lol:)

There's a nice line from RTD in one of the early Confidentials, that Rose thinks she's there as the love interest, but we know she's there to wander off and get into trouble.

And I've also seen it theorised that given the nature of the being Rose settled down with, Donna/Rose has to be as canon as Doctor/Rose ;D

2. Jamie/Victoria (The plot of Evil of the Daleks has a whole section that rests on the fact that Jamie is bound to fancy Victoria.)

There's certainly enough evidence that he fancies her (quite a lot of it in Fury from the Deep). But do we ever find out how she feels about him?

[IMForeman]

I suspect that Doctor/Queen Elizabeth I might be the canon-est pairing we've ever gotten with the Doctor. Which strikes me as both hilarious and sad.

Wasn't there something with Peter Davison deciding to play it like Five had a thing for Nyssa? As for Big Finish, The Gathering seems to make it quite clear that Five is in unrequited love with Tegan. Without being too spoilery, there's a scene where he argues with her boyfriend about who's more important in her life, then her boyfriend suggests that Tegan was in love with the Doctor, whose reaction is to go "what?" and he then awkwardly asks Tegan later, who bursts out laughing at the question, and then no less awkwardly he says "...oh."

Also, I remember hearing that in an interview Frazer Hines said he and Patrick Troughton would play up Two/Jamie for fun? I think it might have been an interview in one of his Companion Chronicles, which I don't have. Anyway, does anyone know for sure? Because the whole thing sounds like ridiculous shipper bait to me.

[lostspook]

Oh, you're right - Ten/Elizabeth I is definitely on the list. I'm afraid I've rewatched very little New Who so I do tend to miss the obvious.

And just to make it clear (as I always waffle too much and hide my meaning in wordage) I'm just listing where a 'ship has been in some way, shape or form actually acknowledged as possibly romantic in an on-screen script.

Having said that... re Five and Nyssa, Peter Davison has always maintained his Doctor worked best with Nyssa, and he seems to have had a slight crush on Sarah Sutton (his then wife was reportedly rather unpleasant to her when she visited the set) but his TARDIS team are ridiculously careful in being non-shippy, officially, and unofficially, you can ship them in rather a lot of combinations very easily. *cough* (Except Adric, although people apparently *do*).

I have The Gathering and, yes, the bit where the Doctor and Michael have vehicle competitiveness over Tegan is priceless. (The Doctor's trump card: "And does it travel in time?") And, yes, PD gets a lovely mix of relief and regret into one syllable in that scene. So, if I widen to Big Finish, then, yay, I get to include Five/Tegan.

I'm off to amend the list to include Ten/Elizabeth I. You see what I mean? The show's acknowledged ships are just BIZARRE.

[johne]

Oct 9, 2010 14:44:21 GMT IMForeman said:

Also, I remember hearing that in an interview Frazer Hines said he and Patrick Troughton would play up Two/Jamie for fun? I think it might have been an interview in one of his Companion Chronicles, which I don't have. Anyway, does anyone know for sure? Because the whole thing sounds like ridiculous shipper bait to me.

I think that's a case of a rumour spreading and mutating; Hines has said in interviews that he and Patrick Troughton colluded to get things into the scripts that they thought would be fun, but I don't think he's ever said that Two/Jamie was one of those things. When this was brought up on his Facebook page, his comment was "we were a couple...of guys chasing the girls!!"

[johne]

Oct 9, 2010 8:14:33 GMT lostspook said:

6. Ten/Christina (They kiss. Or I thought they did. I can't even remember now.)

You made me go and check (and if you're ever tempted to do likewise, my advice would be not to bother ). She kisses him. But then, so does Jackie and I don't see her on the list ;D ;D

[Maggadin]

The thing about Who is that it's been going on so long that there is no definitive Word of God that you can refer to when it comes to deciding what is and isn't canon. Executive producer? Well, none of them, except Verity Lambert and Sidney Newman, actually created the show. And if you want to use Verity as an authority you'd have to accept that Ian and Barbara were ''just friends'' (not that there's anything ''just'' about friendship) and who wants that, huh? Actors? Well, apparently, Tom and Lalla have both said that their character were in love and that it sort of ''rubbed off'' on them. I don't know if that was just their opinion or if it was shared by the production/writing theme. There is that rumour about Robert Holmes, of course. As for Davison... well I just can't - Nyssa's a kid!

Re - Doctor/Sarah Jane: one of the reasons I disliked School Reunion was that they sort of took what was a perfect friendship and turned it into romance for the sole purpose of creation ''tension''. So, you know, while I did see flirtation between Four and Sarah, I don't think they ever actually did anything. This is purely my subjective theory, though. That's what I like about (classic) Who - you get to decide whether there's something there or not. That's why I hate the whole idea of Doctor a Proper Canonical Significant Other that they're doing now; it forces you to accept it even if you don't like it and makes the subtextual relationships seem ''lesser'' because hey, they weren't ''real'' canon, after all.

[reversethepolarity]

You know, I could reply to this, but I think Mags just summed it all up beautifully. That's pretty much a wonderful example of why I love Classic Who above all things NuWho. Especially her explanation of what was wrong with School Reunion. I also thought they made less of Sarah Jane in that episode in an attempt to make more of Rose. But then again they did a lot of trying to make more of Rose, none of which I enjoyed, but I especially disliked it when it was used against another (awesome) companion.

I mostly agree with Lost's list, but I think I'd vary on a few points. Here's what I'd saw was mostly canon (not what I consider canon, 'cause that would be a much longer list, but just what I think was shown as canon by strong implication.) I should add that I don't necessarily mean any of these were sexual relationships. Just that there was something a little more than friends. I also consider Big Finish just as canon as the TV show.

One/ Susan's Grandmother
One/ Cameca
Two/ Jamie (I don't believe they intended it, but if you judge merely on what you see, then I think you can see something there. I do, anyway.)
Three/ Jo (I saw this from episode one, but I think it's really clear in his reaction to Jo's leaving in Green Death. Or any scene with him and Jo in Green Death.)
Four (and maybe Three)/ Sarah Jane (I think there is evidence to this point if you look for it, especially with Four, but I'm not completely convinced.)
Four/ Romana (The only Doctor pairing I find indisputable. With I or II, but really with II. I think the actors loved each other and it really showed. I mean, City of Death is just one, long date, really.)
Five/ Tegan (The Gathering pretty much sealed the deal on this one for me. I also thought I say it in Peter's acting.)
Six/ Peri (I saw it in the show, but I think it just became glaringly obvious in the audios. Plus, in 'The Mysterious Planet' it is implied that Peri may know the Doctor's name. He wouldn't just tell that to anyone.)
Eight/ Grace (Yeah, three kisses. It was there.)
Eight/ Charley (Audios here. She still wanted to travel with him even after that Zagreus nonsense. I think something was there.)
Nine/ Rose (The last episode made it clear to me. I hate to admit it, but I guess I have to accept it.)

Companions

Ian/ Barbara (I see this as the most canon, especially if you include the books, which I do.)
Ben/ Polly
Jamie/ Victoria
Brig/ Liz (I think there was some pretty obvious flirting going on there. Especially in the first episode. And yes, I consider Brig a companion.)
Jo/ Mike
Nyssa/ Adric (Ever heard 'The Boy Time Forgot?' That audio pretty much makes this canon, in a really weird way.)
Amy/ Rory

I also think that Turlough had to be having a relationship with somebody, I just haven't decide who. Maybe all three, who knows? = ) That sneaky Turlough.

Above all, though, I think Doctor/ Master is pretty clearly canon. I don't like every version of it, but I think there's some strong evidence for most of them. Three/ Delgado had a bit of it. Ainley/ Five was just glaring you in the face. ("My greatest stimualation." Really?" Ainley/ Any Doctor he met, actually. Roberts/ Eight had that strangely kinky torture gizmo for no apparent reason. (Okay, flimsy evidence, but still.) And pretty much all of EoT was just in your face ship. (Though I don't consider EoT canon, but even I saw it, as much as I cringe as the thought.)

[Maggadin]

Oct 10, 2010 4:01:03 GMT reversethepolarity said:

One/ Susan's Mother

Surely you mean grandmother??? ;D

[lostspook]

Oct 10, 2010 1:50:27 GMT Maggadin said:

That's what I like about (classic) Who - you get to decide whether there's something there or not. That's why I hate the whole idea of Doctor a Proper Canonical Significant Other that they're doing now; it forces you to accept it even if you don't like it and makes the subtextual relationships seem ''lesser'' because hey, they weren't ''real'' canon, after all.

Oh, exactly, me too.RtP is right: you put that into words very well.

I'm sorry; I expect I didn't explain myself as usual - I just wanted to see if I could think of which ones have been stated literally on TV to amuse and create discussion. Please don't think I'm trying to set up a law of canon or anything. It would be slightly hubristic of me to say the least... The fun comes in putting our own interpretation to all this, and where, as you say, New Who does tend to spoil it by going and saying things aloud, darn 'em.

And I've no intention of giving up Ian/Barbara, and I'll even hang on to Sarah/Harry wherever I can, too...

And RtP, I like your list a lot better than mine, but I think yours includes those that were implied and I was trying to stick to only those that were stated hence the omissions. And I count Big Finish, too (especially for Eight), but there are a lot of who people don't, because you do have to get the chance to listen to them, which isn't always easy for people.

[jjpor]

Oct 9, 2010 8:14:33 GMT lostspook said:

If we count Big Finish, then Hex has a crush on Ace. (No, Hex! Don't do it! :lol:)

Indeed. Ace's Romantic Aura of Death might not prove as deadly to an established TARDIS crewmember as it almost always does to her one-shot romantic interests, but that's like saying you might not get killed playing Russian roulette - better not to take the risk, really.

I'd join with others in saying that Maggadin has summed up my position on the whole subject of Doctor Who shippiness and indeed "canon" in general in her post. And it brings me back to a point I've made before (yeah, I like repeating myself...), but this kind of "creatorless" continuity to my mind puts certain responsibilities on writers, producers, showrunners etc. Yes, they should feel free to make the best stories they can without worrying about treading on fandom's preconceived notions (I mean, look at TW Children of Earth - a huge chunk of fandom HATED it for what it did to one much-beloved character and to the setup of the show in general - but they were wrong, imho - it was a fantastic story and better than most of them deserved).

However, I think in the case of Doctor Who, they're sort of custodians of something that's been the work of many hands over many years - there's a legacy there, and they do imo have a responsibility not to mess it up for the people coming after them. Maybe "ships" don't have that sort of impact on the show's long-range development, but I do think that by making Ten/Rose near-as-dammit "canon" the way RTD did or if Moffat did the same thing with River, they're getting dangerously close to sort of introducing that Word of God Maggadin was talking about, which is best avoided really, I think.

So, you know, I don't mind RTD strongly implying that Ten and Rose were romantically interested in each other, but when he started putting in things like that line johne identified re Sarah, you know as good as belittling all those previous Doctor/companion relationships, well that smacks of arrogance and hubris etc etc if you ask me.

God, I do sound like a right "fan" above, don't I? ;D

But having said that, in regard to the spoilers on the other thread, I do hope that if Moffat *brings Romana back and then kills her/turns her evil/"Josses" the idea of Doctor/Romana,* while I'll no doubt be extremely annoyed on the grounds I outline above, I'll still be big enough to judge the story itself on the usual criteria of plot, writing, acting etc rather than whether it ruffles my fannish feathers, not wanting to look like a hypocrite after slamming the TW fans just there. ;D

[Maggadin]

Wow, people are agreeing with my opinions. It's a very strange feeling...

Oh, JJ, stop scaring me.

I'm still not sure I buy Doctor/Sarah as romantic/sexual, though. I think there are degrees of friendship, with some of them having a touch of ''romance'' about them, but I don't think Sarah Jane for a second naive enough to think that she and the Doctor would live Happily Ever After, somehow. She's not that kind of person.

[jjpor]

One I don't get is Three/Jo. I mean, they're obviously really close and very affectionate towards each other, but I always take it for some sort of surrogate father/daughter deal and find it rather cute, and am always amazed when people seem to interpret it romantically. Am I hopeless naive/out of touch or something?

[reversethepolarity]

Oct 10, 2010 4:32:21 GMT Maggadin said:

Oct 10, 2010 4:01:03 GMT reversethepolarity said:

One/ Susan's Mother

Surely you mean grandmother??? ;D

Hmph. Well, they are aliens. Therefore they are 'bound to have different values and customs.' = )

(Not really. Thanks for pointing that out, I edited. it.)

Lostspook:

If you were talking to me, Lost, no worries. I understood what you were doing, I was just trying to see what my own list would look like. I mean, there really isn't any such thing as an official canon for Doctor Who, is there? (You know, that way of thinking has sort of rubbed off on all my other fandoms too. It's very annoying. But also super fun. = ) ) If you weren't talking to me, then never mind. Hmph.

Yeah, I was a little more loose with my list. I broadened it to what I personally saw in their actions and manners towards each other and not just what they outright said, since then my list would have probably been exactly the same as yours. But if you count Big Finish, some of those do become actually stated, like Nyssa/Adric. And I still assert that no relationship has been more glaringly stated that Doctor/Master. = ) And yeah, Harry/Sarah for the win!

(When I'm being much more strict on canon, though, I personally don't believe the Doctor's really been involved with any of his companions. The show clearly doesn't want to portray it that way. Except, possibly, Romana II/Four. Excluding those two, when it comes to absolute canon, I'm a strict 'asexual Doctor' fan. = ) But being Doctor Who, I rarely have to live in this world of strict canon. Heh.)

[reversethepolarity]

You summed that up perfectly, JJ. That is one of the big things I dislike about NuWho. It's common practice in Doctor Who that pairings are never outright stated. Strongly implied, sure, but never just blared out there. It allows the fans to take and choose what they want. I like it, especially since it's been the practice for so long, and I never liked Ten/Rose because of it. (I actually stated hating Rose because of that, and I still haven't really warmed up to her, but as we move past Ten, I'm slowly beginning to at least accept her existence. Yeah, that's right, I denied her! I can do that! I'm a WHO fan. - I should also state that I was fine with her with Nine. It's just Ten that rubbed me the wrong way.)

As for Three/Jo, I really don't know if I could explain to someone who doesn't see it, JJ. ;D It's just one of those things. I just see it, very clearly, every time I see them in a scene together. But then again, I see lots of things that others don't, 'cause I'm weird like that. I don't know. I just noticed that they were always very close, emotionally and physically. Like Six and Peri, they didn't seem able to keep their hands off each other. Now, I know that had a lot to do with Katie basically being blind, but still. Plus I swear I saw her making goo-goo eyes at him at least a few times. Which again, could have been because Katie was quite taken with Jon, but I'm going to say it was Jo. But it was the Green Death it I really thought it was apparent. His reaction to her leaving was adorably cute. He was really broken up over it, yet they hadn't actually been friends all that long. I don't know. Like I said, it's not something I can explain, as evidenced by this really long paragraph that explained absolutely nothing. ;D

((I should also state that I don't tend to think in sexual terms, so when I saw 'pairing' I don't necessarily mean I think that sex is involved. It could be, but it doesn't have to be. I mean, I support Four/Romana, but being both from a race that (in the books) had no use for sex, it's completely plausible they never did. Doesn't make them any less of a pairing, at least in my eyes.'Course, considering how much like James Bond Three was, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was a womanizing fiend. ;D But a very gentlemanly fiend, of course.))

[merrythemad]

Directly addressing the Jo/Three thing, actually, I think it IS a bit obvious at LEAST on his end. He, I think, did love her and perhaps BECAUSE she was flighty n not overly-bright and very sweet, she was in essence everything the Timelords were not and a symbol of what he both had lost and gained in his sentence of exile. I think, that no matter your stance before, it at LEAST becomes clear in Green Death when he's so hurt by her casual "you'd like him, he's just like only human" or whatever she said. It hit him hard enough he went to the party late and snuck out early. It's unrequited and (I think) an only time in DW, I can think of that it was the Doctor in love and having it go unrequited. She, in effect, used his exact reasons for loving her against him and reminded him that he was, indeed, very alone. I have more to say on the others but am headachey just now so will add my two-cents later

[reversethepolarity]

Well, show me up, why don't you, Merry? = )

Yeah, that's a pretty good way of summing it up in less words that I could. And in a way that actually made sense. Though, personally, I think the love was two-sided. That they ever did anything about it, I don't know. But Jo did have that chance to live with a fairly handsome king of an entire planet (Peladon - who was also Pat Troughton's son, so woot), but turned him down to go back with the Doctor. Sure, you could say she turned him down just to go home, but I think it was clear she didn't want to leave the Doc, not just yet, anyway. Which was sadly a mistake, because Peladon was loads better than Cliff. I mean, he was a Troughton for crying out loud.

[johne]

Oct 10, 2010 21:50:21 GMT jjpor said:

One I don't get is Three/Jo. I mean, they're obviously really close and very affectionate towards each other, but I always take it for some sort of surrogate father/daughter deal and find it rather cute, and am always amazed when people seem to interpret it romantically. Am I hopeless naive/out of touch or something?

I think part of it is that shipping can be a hammer, and make everything look like a nail. If Character Y got killed, Character X would be upset? Then she must be THE WOMAN HE LOVES, no other explanation will suffice. They hold hands, they smile at each other? Then they are incontrovertibly at it like rabbits. (Applying this attitude to the opening of The War Machines gets you a One/Dodo ship by return of thought. Was there a jar of brain bleach somewhere round here?)

[lostspook]

Oct 10, 2010 22:34:45 GMT reversethepolarity said:

If you were talking to me, Lost, no worries. I understood what you were doing, I was just trying to see what my own list would look like. I mean, there really isn't any such thing as an official canon for Doctor Who, is there? (You know, that way of thinking has sort of rubbed off on all my other fandoms too. It's very annoying. But also super fun. = ) ) If you weren't talking to me, then never mind. Hmph.

Yes, sorry about that - I just thought I'd waffled so much people probably couldn't understand what I was on about, something I tend to do far too much.

And JJ: yes, golly, how shocking it is that these people like RTD and Steven Moffat seem to believe that they are running the show and have some sort of right to make creative decisions. The hubris of it! Gosh. *sarcasm mode off*

(Sorry! I mean, all right, I do agree - I have some of the same issues, but hubristic? They've got the right to do far worse things if they choose! And so they should have, or what's the point? If it's a still-living show, it's not a museum piece, simply there to be preserved in a case. Thank goodness - it nearly was. And sadly, all the fans can do about the things they don't like is to stick to the grand old tradition of throwing rotten tomatoes at the current producer. Such is the natural order of these things...

I do hope your Master icon isn't getting to you again.)

'Shipping' is a strange thing - I suppose we have to admit that a lot of the time it's in the eye of the beholder. But it's fun... :lol:

[jjpor]

I think johne makes an excellent point regarding hammers/nails, and I also agree that relationships like Three/Jo have plenty of nuances (or at least they do if you examine them as closely as we do!). And that's right and proper, to go along with what everyone has said about things being left to interpretation etc. I'll certainly be watching the pair of them closely next Three story I see! ;D

Lostspook, don't you know that extreme unreasonableness/hyperbole is my birthright as a fan??!! ;D Who does Rusty/Moff think he is just because he's getting paid by the mere owners of the copyright to write the show for them for a living?? The dashed cheek of the man!!!

You know what I mean, though, even if I overstate it. I'm all for bold storytelling and shaking things up (I mean, look at the Time War, great concept and it propelled most of the interesting plotlines going through Nine and Ten), but I do think Who's a special case, I really do, and that it's only common courtesy for whoever the temporary guardian is to leave whoever came after them most of the same options they had coming in. I mean, we often say how the beauty of it is that it's an open-ended format where anything can happen, so I just think they should be careful not to paint themselves into a corner where they remove some of that open-endedness. I'm not even talking about "shipping" necessarily, it's more of a general point.

Hey, you know at the top of the thread where Maggadin said the nearest things we have to Word of God were Verity Lambert and Sydney Newman? Well, I hesitate to link to the Torygraph, but check this out:

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/doctor-who/8052694/How-Doctor-Who-nearly-became-the-Time-Lady.html